Doom Wiki:Central Processing

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Heretic/Hexen capitalization issues[edit]

Cf. archive for context of the below wrap-up.

Wrap-up[edit]

To recap, we agreed on the following changes (partly reusing & expanding Nockson' original table):

Hope I didn't miss any, feel free to augment. --Xymph (talk) 10:57, 20 December 2023 (CST)

Gauss was right, added two more. --Xymph (talk) 16:23, 20 December 2023 (CST)

← ← ←
I think we need to take a few final steps in this discussion: 1) names of parts of ultimate (4th) weapons in Hexen shouldn't be capitalized (for example: Quietus (Hilt) -> Quietus (hilt)); 2) all of the Hexen keys should be written lowercase in text (for example: Emerald Key -> emerald key); 3) caps in Hexen puzzle items - planets and gears all lowercase inside text (for example: Clock Gear (Steel in Bronze) -> clock gear (steel in bronze)), some IMO must be changed (Flame Mask -> flame mask, Yorick's Skull -> Yorick's skull, Glaive Seal -> glaive seal, Holy Relic -> holy relic), all others should be kept as they are; 4) for the sake of consistency I think that spike's subtypes should be written in lowercase in the things tables (i.e. Spike Down/Up -> Spike down/up). --Nockson (talk) 15:14, 28 December 2023 (CST)

I was already wondering when you'd bring these up. ;-)

1. Agreed.
2. Agreed. And while we're here, so should the Strife keys.
3. All puzzle items are unique, occurring once in the game. So all could be considered proper nouns. But indeed not the multiple gears and planets. So lowercase those but I'd prefer to keep all others unchanged, as they are the Codex, the Relic, the Seal, etc.
4. Sure.

Updated DMMPST thing tables per current proposal. --Xymph (talk) 07:24, 29 December 2023 (CST)

Thanks! I agree with your point on #3. Also, is there a possibility that the results of this discussion could become part of the Wiki's guidelines? So that new editors know how to write correctly. --Nockson (talk) 14:27, 29 December 2023 (CST)

Done. --Xymph (talk) 08:38, 1 January 2024 (CST)

← ← ←
It's a shame, but I missed one more thing that we need to discuss - Hexen classes - I assumed (by looking through existing pages) that they should be capitalized in text (example: "...for the Fighter it is...") and I've already fixed half of Hexen level pages this way before thinking that I need to ask this here. Should we keep it that way? My personal opinion is that classes should not be capitalized. I don't see anything special in these names. --Nockson (talk) 14:05, 12 January 2024 (CST)

It makes sense to capitalize the classes since they are part of a name - Baratus the Fighter. When you're using the classes by itself, you are still implying that name, just in a shortened form, instead of a generic class of "fighter". So in my opinion it therefore needs to be capitalized as well. --Gregor (talk) 16:35, 12 January 2024 (CST)

Works for me. --Xymph (talk) 03:19, 13 January 2024 (CST)

Forgot to answer here. I'm 100% agree and will continue with my caps fixing then. --Nockson (talk) 11:47, 17 January 2024 (CST)

Alias omission[edit]

Why are certain person aliases omitted on page names? Here's a few examples I've spotted so far.

Tom Mustaine > Tom Mustaine (ParadoX)
L.A. Sieben > Leo Sieben (Anavrin)
Jonathan El-Bizri > Jonathan El-Bizri (Biz)
Patrick Pineda > Patrick Pineda (Metacorp)
Jon Dowland > Jon Dowland (Teppic)

--Horizon (talk) 22:31, 21 December 2023 (CST)

No particular reason, I guess. Some articles exist since the wiki's earliest days, when conventions were not firmly established yet, others are recent. In some cases like Sieben, the person didn't use their alias much themselves and in commercial releases (Mustaine's too) it is customary to use only formal names, no aliases. I've made various adjustments. --Xymph (talk) 04:20, 22 December 2023 (CST)

There also might be very slight confusion between BiZ and Jonathan El-Bizri (Biz) with the auto-caps thing. - turn Biz into a disambig page and move BiZ to [[BiZ (mapper)]] to maintain consistent formatting like this? --Horizon (talk) 16:00, 22 December 2023 (CST)

BiZ is widely linked already, so that can remain the canonical link for that person. --Xymph (talk) 17:21, 22 December 2023 (CST)

Quite a few more are missing: (these are from skimming over random people pages)
Ola Björling > Ola Björling (ukiro) (this appears to be a redirect for some reason)
Malcolm Sailor > Malcolm Sailor (Hayduke)
Justin Fisher > Justin Fisher (Harlequin)
Charles Jacobi > Charles Jacobi (Chukker)
Jekyll Grim Payne > [[Jekyll Grim Payne (Agent_Ash)]]
Jim Lowell > Jim Lowell (Symbol)
Kim André Malde > Kim André Malde (Mutator)
Kyle McAwesome > [[Kyle McAwesome (kmc)]]

--Horizon (talk) 04:47, 27 December 2023 (CST)

Some pages renamed, for others who rarely/never used the alias themselves I added redirects. Pretty sure Jekyll Grim Payne is an alias, so it cannot use the "full name (alias)" format. Possibly McAwesome is an alias too, so I didn't rename that yet until some confirmation either way surfaces. --Xymph (talk) 07:04, 27 December 2023 (CST)

Sorry if it gets boring doing this, just trying to keep things somewhat consistent. ---Horizon (talk) 03:04, 28 December 2023 (CST)
Dan Townsend (sgt dopey) > Dan Townsend (Yukarin) - page was not moved with name update.
Jaakko Keränen > Jaakko Keränen (skyjake)
Elias Papavassilopoulos > Elias Papavassilopoulos (CaveMan)
David Asaad > David Asaad (A1s)

A few more...
Will Hackney (Archvile46) > Will Hackney (Kid Airbag) - page was not moved with name update.
Piotr Kapiszewski > [[Piotr Kapiszewski (Kapi)]] - would this even count as an alias?
Jan Van der Veken > Jan Van der Veken (BhadTrip)
Thomas van der Velden > Thomas van der Velden (Rabotik)

--Horizon (talk) 02:04, 5 January 2024 (CST)

Well, since there's a list, there's also:

Roland van der Velden > Roland van der Velden (space is green)
Malcolm Sailor > Malcolm Sailor (Hayduke)
Jonathan Rimmer > Jonathan Rimmer (JonR)
Kerkko Välilä > Kerkko Välilä (Robocat)
Nicklas Linnes > Nicklas Linnes (nathas)
Tom Mustaine > Tom Mustaine (ParadoX)
L.A. Sieben > Leo Sieben (Anavrin)
T. Elliot Cannon (Myscha the Sled Dog) > Thomas Elliot Cannon (Myscha the Sled Dog)
Jeremy Wagner > Jeremy Wagner (Iron Lich)

--Dynamo128 (talk) 05:21, 5 January 2024 (CST)

EDIT: I see that some of these have been brought up already, but for the sake of consistency I think it'd be better to rename them (L.A. Sieben seems particularly unfitting for the wiki standards as the first name tends to be used) rather than just having redirects - but that is, of course, only if the amount of work required to do that is reasonable. --Dynamo128 (talk) 05:23, 5 January 2024 (CST)

One more:
Paul Corfiatis > Paul Corfiatis (pcorf) (redirects for some reason)
Going from similar treatment just now to JonR. --Horizon (talk) 08:42, 5 January 2024 (CST)

As mentioned in my first reply, almost all Sieben's credits are by initials, so that seems the canonical styling for this person's name. That's why I kept it that way. Same for "T. Elliot", which is just a style convention to emphasize one's calling name as Elliot. Just like my middle initial P. isn't used much (or is public, even). I also commented on Mustaine already. As before, I don't feel it necessary to updating all uses of names with(out) aliases throughout the wiki into their new canonical paths. Redirects are not that harmful. --Xymph (talk) 09:42, 5 January 2024 (CST)

Hub categorization?[edit]

Last night Nockson and I briefly chatted about hub WADs w.r.t. the {{wad}} template, which reminded me of an entry on Ryan W's todo list. Currently single-hub WADs with a handful of maps are categorized as Multilevel WADs. Such mods exist not only for Hexen but also for Doom (II). Would it make sense to create a separate "Hub WADs" category for these? If Hexen's hubs are moved into a "Hexen hubs" category like Ryan proposed, the PWADs could go into that new category, both under the main Hubs one. Template type 'h' could auto-add the category. But is it meaningful to distinguish them from other multilevel WADs that way? And what to do about megawad hub-based mods, like Cabro's Legacy and the RAMP series? Should "Hub WADs" come in addition to the usual multilevel/episode/megawad types? Let's hear (uhm, read) your thoughts. --Xymph (talk) 06:49, 31 January 2024 (CST)

Well, if the major sorting factor now is the amount of levels then there's no need to add hubs into the template. Though I also think that the hub category is useful, it could be added manually. This hub question also touches the other thing that we discussed yesterday: partial and total conversions. After my 7 edits today, there are no pages on the DoomWiki that use the "t" or "p" parameter in the wad template, the categories for TCs or PCs in all of them were added manually. So the parameters for TCs and PCs are useless. So here are my proposals to change the wad template: either add an additional type2 field that can have parameters for hubs, TCs and PCs (dunno what to do with T/P conversions with hubs in them), or remove "t" and "p" parameters entirely from the template. --Nockson (talk) 12:03, 31 January 2024 (CST)

Removing the t & p parameters seems reasonable if they are no longer useful, although this request would perhaps be better put in the Template_talk:Wad page.
With regards to the "Hub WADs" cat, I would honestly favor a "Hub maps" category that can be added to the hub level articles themselves rather than associating this with the main page. After all, these are the actual hubs, not the PWAD overall. "Hub WADs" to me implies that the WAD is entirely (or mostly) made up of hubs, which isn't the case most of time - maybe a Hub WADs cat would make sense for these type of WADs specifically (if they exist). But the question is whether a WAD needs to be filed under a Hub cat just because it contains one or two hub maps. Sort of like creating an "Icon of Sin WADs" category, rather than just adding an "Icon of Sin maps" category to the maps that actually have one (that could be another worthwhile category to add btw :)). --Gregor (talk) 15:32, 2 February 2024 (CST)

That's a good proposal, it really will be nice and convenient to have "Hub levels" or "Hub maps" category instead of WADs. I support this! --Nockson (talk) 01:50, 4 February 2024 (CST)

Alright, category created, this search helps to find a bunch (but not all) of them. Also created the Hexen subcat per Ryan's todo.
Functionality in the Wad template should not be removed as it may be useful yet. After all, it is entirely feasible (albeit uncommon) to have TCs/PCs without levels, and we are already covering two such PCs.
What would be the use case for the "Icon of Sin maps" category? --Xymph (talk) 04:52, 7 February 2024 (CST)

Well, one would first have to define the Icon of Sin as the combination of Romero's head, monster spawner(s), and a boss texture plus some form of distorted voice sample being played at wakeup, so as to exclude such maps from the category that only feature one or two of these components, such as utilizing monster spawners or using Romero's head on its own. So HR MAP30 would fall under such a "IoS maps" category but HR MAP32 (uses monster spawners as a central threat) and HR MAP23 (uses Romero's head to simulate a reactor blowing up at the end) would not. I think it would be neat and useful for documenting purposes to have a comprehensive list of Icon of Sin maps, new and old, listed on one page.

Another thing to consider would be an even larger "Boss fight maps" or "Boss levels" category that the IoS maps category would be a subcat of. A boss level category would only cover maps that have some boss entity to fight or kill in it, so maps that use large encounters as a substitute for a boss, whether they occupy the final map slot or not, would not qualify in my opinion. Therefore, MAP24: Tough Skin River (BTSX-E1) or MAP30: Haunting Dreams (Scythe 2) do not count as a boss level while MAP30: Eternity (Eviternity) and MAP07: The Beating Heart (Heartland) very much do. But I'm sure there would be some fringe cases to discuss for either category. --Gregor (talk) 11:29, 7 February 2024 (CST)

Soundtracks[edit]

I've noticed a few weird things about the pages listed in the "Soundtracks" table seen here: {{Music}}

They are as follows:

• Doom music is missing E1M10: Sewers from the Xbox port.
• Doom II music is missing MAP33: Betray and all of the maps featured in No Rest for the Living.
• TNT: Evilution is listed under Bobby Prince, incorrectly implying he was the main composer (or deliberately contributed to the soundtrack at all). In reality, TNT's music was a collaboration between Jonathan El-Bizri, Josh Martel, L.A. Sieben, and Tom Mustaine, with some of Bobby's Doom II work re-used.
• The listing of soundtracks based on what composer was featured the most. While this works for games with single composers (i.e. Bobby Prince), this doesn't work for games with multiple composers like TNT: Evilution (see above) and Doom PSX (for which Club Doom was composed by Danny Lewis.

Another related complaint I have is that some games/campaigns do not have music pages of their own when I feel they should. These are

• Hacx
• Hell to Pay and Perdition's Gate
• The Ancient Gods, Parts one and two

MargaretThatcher (talk) 16:40, 5 February 2024 (CST)

Reference that template, don't transclude it, so this page doesn't get added to category Music.

• Xbox maps added.
• TNT Evilution split off and NRftL added (shouldn't be in the D2 table because assignments vary between releases).
• Soundtrack articles for Hacx, HtP and PG are meaningful only if there is sufficient reliable information about them, like track names, composer(s), lengths, etc.
• Doom Eternal soundtrack already mentions the DLCs should get dedicated soundtrack articles, with the same requirements.

--Xymph (talk) 16:42, 7 February 2024 (CST)

Would need to e-mail Jim Lynch about titles and better clarity/corrections on this, but for Hacx:

MAP01: Jim Lynch + Ellsworth Hall

MAP02: Jim Lynch

MAP03: Jim Lynch

MAP04: Jim Lynch

MAP05: Jim Lynch

MAP06: Jim Lynch

MAP07: Jim Lynch

MAP08: Jim Lynch

MAP09: Jim Lynch

MAP10: Jim Lynch + Ellsworth Hall

MAP11: Jim Lynch

MAP12: Jim Lynch + Ellsworth Hall + Mark Van Natta

MAP13: Jim Lynch + Ellsworth Hall

MAP14/Text screen: Jim Lynch + Ellsworth Hall

MAP15: Jim Lynch

MAP16: Ellsworth Hall

MAP17: Jim Lynch + Ellsworth Hall

MAP18: Jim Lynch + Ellsworth Hall

MAP19/MAP21: Jim Lynch

MAP20: Jim Lynch

MAP31: Jim Lynch

Intermission: not sure

Title: not sure

--Blursphere (talk) 17:48, 7 February 2024 (CST)

Coordination[edit]

Hello, I was wondering if the wiki has any kind of central coordination base, like a Discord server or the like. I couldn't find anything on the sidebar links but wanted to confirm since it's a pretty common arrangement these days. Thanks. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Kisequé (talk • contribs) .

You just found it, right here. And for a quick chat, there is also Doomwiki (IRC channel), a few editors hang out there from time to time. --Xymph (talk) 03:02, 28 March 2024 (CDT)

I see. Very old-school, charming! I'm not terribly familiar with discussing over talk pages so I apologize as I get used to the conventions.
On the IRC chat, I did see that but was unable to connect. Are there any common errors in getting set up there? I've never used the technology before. Kisequé (talk) 13:46, 28 March 2024 (CDT)

For talk pages, you can learn from examples all around the wiki, but your first reply is fine. :) For IRC, one client used by several editors that is pretty easy to set up and use, is HexChat. --Xymph (talk) 14:30, 28 March 2024 (CDT)

Long map names[edit]

Some of the recent WADs added to the wiki have very long map names. They break columns on the WAD pages and (IMHO) look bad on mappers' pages. This is especially important if we will create pages for such maps. You can check HERE for some context. Let's discuss how to handle such cases. For the sake of readability and consistency I propose to add the following phrase to the guidelinse: Level names longer than 40 characters must be truncated using an ellipsis. This shortened form of the level name should be used everywhere, including in the title of the article about the level. The only exception is the preamble of the article about the level; the full name must be written there. --Nockson (talk) 11:49, 24 May 2024 (CDT)

Merging articles[edit]

I have noticed two pairs of articles that I believe should be merged:

• Some Doom II-specific projectiles triggering linedefs and Projectiles triggering linedefs
• Indie games and Fan-made Doom games

These articles have overlap to the point where I think, for each pair, one article should be deleted and the other should have missing content transferred. This would break some links, so I'm wondering what the usual approach is. Should some speedy edits be made to transfer content and change links before marking for deletion? -Inuk (talk) 09:03, 31 May 2024 (CDT)

It's advisable to add {{Merge}} to the pertaining pages and post proposals on their Talk pages (like you already did for one), to invite discussion and ideas how to combine the content. Hasty edits are usually not a good idea in this area. Unfortunately we seem to be in a quiet period for activity by editors, let alone admins, so this could take a while... some of the merge category entries are lingering there for years. --Xymph (talk) 10:53, 31 May 2024 (CDT)

While the first pair seems to indeed be about the same thing; the second pair isn't. Fan-made Doom games is about unofficial Doom games, such as DRL or MiniDoom; indie games is about non-Doom games made with Doom ports, such as Hedon or Selaco. The only overlap is the "Non-Doom games using the Doom engine" section from Fan-made Doom games, section which honestly could be removed as it directly contradicts the page's title. --Gez (talk) 06:41, 2 June 2024 (CDT)