User talk:Rosguill

This user is a polyglot and likes languages a bit too much for their own good. They're happy to try to speak to you here in Spanish, German, French, Portuguese, Italian, Hebrew, Yiddish, or Russian, although they may need to switch back to English depending on the subject matter. For a full list of proficiencies, see their User page.

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Hi there,

Is this "allowed" to be rev-del'd? https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Oi!&diff=next&oldid=1226101870 Thanks! Myrealnamm's Alternate Account (talk) 15:32, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Eh, it's obvious vandalism but I think revdel is unnecessary here. It's juvenile, but it's not really offensive per-se and the article in question isn't a BLP and I don't see this being a serious defamation concern. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 15:35, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, thanks! Myrealnamm's Alternate Account (talk) 15:36, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Rosguill, I saw you reverted someone here adding a site on perenial sources page with a reason "rv addition, 3 discussions all of them small, one of them not at RSN, none of them formally closed, and discussion looks like more of a "no consensus" balance than "generally reliable" to me."

While I am not related to the case, I just would like to know the steps I should take so that the site The Nation (weblink: https://www.mwnation.com/) could be added there or on the list of reliable sources.

I tried posting this here but don't know if the outcome will be the same.
Another thing is that I frequently create articles using this source, so I really need the community's input on it. Thanks. --Tumbuka Arch (talk) 10:31, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Tumbuka Arch, WP:RSP is not a list of reliable sources per se, it is a list of sources that have been repeatedly, exhaustively discussed. Most sources used on Wikipedia are not listed there. If you are uncertain about a source’s reliability and want the community’s input, you can start a discussion at WP:RSN. Alternatively, if there’s been disagreement in whether or not it’s reliable enough to be used in the contexts you have been relying on it, you can open an WP:RFC at RSN to hopefully get a clearer consensus. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 14:37, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

		Special Edition New Page Patroller's Barnstar
		This award is given in recognition to Rosguill for accumulating at least 200 points during the May 2024 NPP backlog drive. Your contributions helped play a part in the 14,452 reviews completed during the drive. Thank you so much for taking part and contributing to help reduce the backlog! Hey man im josh (talk) 19:01, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

		Rack and pinion Award
		This award is given in recognition to Rosguill for accumulating at least 15 points during each week of the May 2024 NPP backlog drive. Your contributions played a part in the 14,452 reviews completed during the drive. Thank you so much for taking part and contributing to help reduce the backlog! Hey man im josh (talk) 19:18, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, you mentioned in this edit that this IP has behavioural similarities to a sockfarm , they still seem to be socking using the same range , and have personally attacked me multiple times. [1] [2] [3][4] Ratnahastin (talk) 15:24, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ratnahastin Given how much the IP jumps around, I'm not seeing a range that we could block. I would offer to remove or strike messages with personal attacks, but it seems like that's essentially been taken care of already. You can request page protection if they make disruptive edits. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 19:25, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Just to let you know, their range (2404:3100:1800::/40) has been blocked by Spicy as a checkuser block. [5] Ratnahastin (talk) 12:51, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hello i was just wondering what could be done about suspicious accounts such as this one @77.87.98.59 which does nothing but revert articles in order to remove mentions of Chechens? Can it be blocked or could the articles they spam be locked so only people with a certain amount of edits can access them? because this account does nothing but remove mention of Chechens like here and here, my rollbacks to original versions (which me, Wikieditor and others agreed upon) are still being removed and i don't want to edit war. Goddard2000 (talk) 21:10, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like they took a break from editing shortly before you left this message. While their pattern of edits is concerning, I'd like to see more concrete evidence that their edits are clearly tendentious--there's one or two where they give a completely misleading edit summary, but the majority indicate justifiable reasons for changes (e.g. removing unsourced material or material not verifiable with the cited source). If you can demonstrate to me that these justifications were false a block would be in order, but I'm not sure it's worth the effort at this moment given the chance that the IP goes dormant. If disruption continues at these pages it's a basis for protection. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 22:15, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The two examples i provided are not enough evidence? the IP is literally just removing any mention of Chechens in the intro from articles such as Orstkhoy (a major Chechen tribe) and Durdzuks (an ancient exonym for Chechens). I am sure you remember how me and Wikieditor/Muqale debated about various sections in these articles but nowhere did any of us disagree that both Orstkhoy and Durzuk are related to Chechens, the talk pages are testament to that if we disagreed on something it was rather who the tribe/exonym was related to most. The removal of unsourced material is fine but again it seems to have been done due to it having mentions of Chechens but the main issue with his edits (the most recent ones) is the removal of the sentence about the Chechen ethnicity of Argun district and the villages transferred to it. This part: "due to them belonging to the same nation as the locals (Chechen) and geographically closer to the central governance of the Okrug." He removes it despite it existing in the source on page 3 in the bottom, again it was already accepted by other editors who usually disagree with me. Only the IP addresses seem to be disagreeing, in my opinion it is enough to ban. Goddard2000 (talk) 01:38, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I see your perspective, and I hadn't realized on the first glance how much sourced text concerning Chechen ancestry was included in the rest of the Orstkhoy article and had just been paying attention to the sections they changed, which were unreferenced. I also hadn't realized that the "return to stable version" (which it in no way was) was their second edit, out of the blue, which to me signals that they both a) clearly have edited Wikipedia before and b) fully understand how disruptive and misleading their editing is. I'm going to go ahead and block for a month or so, given that the IP has about a week of stable history. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 02:26, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In February, you gave Benicaverra a UPE warning, which they ignored. On 6 June, they reappeared, removed your warning from their talk page, and made several drive-by "votes" at AfD, all deletes except two keeps at WP:Articles for deletion/Matt Hunt (journalist) and WP:Articles for deletion/MacGregor (filmmaker), both SPA-created articles. This smells like a UPE network, but I'm not sure how best to proceed except raising it at WP:COIN, which probably won't achieve much. I already emailed the CU mailing list with the concerns, given that it wasn't obvious enough to build SPI case on, but no action seems to have been taken. Do you have any suggestions? --Paul_012 (talk) 03:41, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The ignored warning followed by AfD disruption seems like enough for me to justify a block. You may want to also file an WP:SPI between this account and the two accounts that created those AfDs, as they're both SPAs with less than 50 edits, and a CU check may turn up more accounts as well. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 03:47, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I've filed an SPI at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Benicaverra. --Paul_012 (talk) 04:30, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

...and we were talking about the need to develop better information on Afro-centric reliable sources. Barkeep49 pointed me to this page and, on looking at its history, it seems you started it and have been constantly improving it. Thank you for your work here! It is a hidden gem that just highlights how knowledgeable editors like yourself do so much to help improve the project quietly, consistently, and professionally. Risker (talk) 02:22, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Risker, ironically, when I saw the RSN thread bemoaning a lack of assessments of African sources last week my first thought was "oh I've tried and failed to fix that". A few years ago I made an effort to try to launch RfCs assessing the media landscapes of countries obscure to English Wikipedia, but it ended up being a bit of a bust for the same reasons that we lack these assessments in the first place: our editors by and large are not familiar with them. The problem is resistant to proactive solutions within the sphere of English Wikipedia, but at least by documenting the discussions we do have (despite whatever shortcomings and biases they may have) we can incrementally assemble what we think we know in a format that is conducive to further correction, critique and expansion. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 15:01, 22 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi,

I have seen that you have redirected the page "tiyyar" back to ezhava which was redirected to the page Ezhava earlier. seems like it is removed again by someone else. this page was redirected from years to ezhava and it has been discussed a lot of time. there is no proper source to suggest thatb these both are separate . its like creating multiple pages for the same topic. in addition to that most of the topics mentioned in the article tiyyar seems to be based on newspapers and are fake. it even claims there is a dialect called thiyya in the lead. The main page details all the history of this community. and what is the reason for creating a low quality copy of the same ? multiple times the redirect was added again . In addition to that name tiyyar seems dubious as in almost all sources it is mentioned as thiyya , so thiyya not tiyyar. please look into this. Lisa121996 (talk) 13:05, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In addition to that in around 200+ pages the word ezhava is used for thiyyas, this is creating extra confusions, from 2013 ownwards multiple admins have redirected the page to ezhava because of the same. most of the new page sources are simpley news articles while a detailed one with raj era sources are added in the main page . please bring the redirect back. Lisa121996 (talk) 13:48, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Lisa121996 the concerns you raise are valid--I have tried looking into this in the past and was both disappointed and confused by the state of sourcing at Tiyyar. However, there are a lot of sources on Google Scholar that do describe a group by the name "Tiyyar", which would nominally establish that an adequate article could be written, even if the current revision is lacking. The decisive evidence that would support your suggestion of restoring the redirect would be either 1) a high quality source unambiguously saying that Ezhava and Tiyyar (and/or Thiyya) are synonyms or 2) links to prior discussions that establish a consensus around how to treat this group/these terms. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 14:14, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

ezhava and thiyya being synonymous is clarified by wikipedia admins from the main page ezhava like 100+++ times. wikipedia ,main page itself says in the section variations. like else either would have to separate entire things or else would have to redirect this . the thing is some things are contradicting and confusing , interestingly this was discussed earlier in the page ezhava as well as thiyya , like every once in a while this happens and it would get redirected back , you can check from the page history. the currrent page tiyyar is simply discussing genetics and like 90 percent of the sources are dubious when we talk about a large commununity and there is a properly researched page with raj era sources , what is the point in creating this to confuse the audience ? i would reccomend to redirect it back Lisa121996 (talk) 15:21, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Its just the alternative name which is synonymous : Quoting from the main page Ezhava --> They are also known as Ilhava, Irava, Izhava and Erava in the south of the region; as Chovas, Chokons and Chogons in Central Travancore; and as Thiyyar, Tiyyas and Theeyas in the Malabar region.

This is from the section variations from the main page ezhava. the problem is since these both are included together it would require to split like the entire pages , if it is separate . I have checked the past edits and archieves and the main admins had made it clear that both are same . It would require splitting up the page "Ezhava" too . Else it is like creating 10. 20 pages with the same name. Also thiyyas are being counted as a separate ethnicity in the page tiyyar in most of the cases including the govt records the name is thiyya , so like it is extra confusion. All the details are well discussed in the main page ezhava. the current page tiyyar even discusses , genetics like indo aryans etc, is a mere news article enough enough for this claims  ?? the article claims things like separate dialect for thiyya. I mean how can this be in an anecyclopedia even a news article wont say this Lisa121996 (talk) 15:30, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

proofs:

Also , I was just checking up the talk in the page Talk:Ezhava - Wikipedia admins have made clear that. you can check . (check the last one)

Also below are the links where almost everyone have reverted it back stating the same reason as wikipedia considers it as one.

Tiyyar - Wikipedia

Tiyyar - Wikipedia

Tiyyar - Wikipedia

Tiyyar - Wikipedia

regarding book sources - The main page ezhava have that .

So it is clear with the disputes and the decision. the user 'HariNellattl' has been constantly removing this once in a while while the editors were reverting.

So if you are adding the redirect back as per the other admins did previously kindly do it in a protective way as i doubt there are group of soc accounts surfing around this page . they will revert it within seconds just like they did with your first edits.

Also in most of the pages in wiki these both are synonymously used, identifying this as separate would require the entire thing to be changed. otherwise this only contribute to misinformation and confusion .

thanks. Lisa121996 (talk) 16:33, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

1. The heading of this page is "Ezhava" ,while the irony is that in the first pragraph itself 2 images are being conpared - this is no longer the case. They are both captioned at being Ezhava (as the article lead identifies "Ezhava" and "Thiyyar" to be synomous (they are local names for the same group)

The page is providing an outdated citation and with the help of that is trying to defame both ezhava and one other community . - can you please specify which citation is concerning you.

- the page Thiyya redirects to Ezhava.

SSSB (talk) 17:19, 3 July 2021 (UTC)

This is a similar edit request and the reply, that i found from the page ezhava the link , I have copied the needed points and decision i have provided the link -- Talk:Ezhava - Wikipedia pasting it again. (for full discussion) .

Also the main page ezhava itself claims so please check the part variations. these all need to be removed else it would become so contradictory statements. Lisa121996 (talk) 16:42, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Responding broadly to all of the above: 1) I am arguably WP:INVOLVED at this point and thus should not take admin actions, you should make a case at WP:ANI or WP:AE if you're calling for the page to be protected. 2) While this doesn't preclude you from being correct, the evidence you've provided in the form of small, several-year-old Wikipedia discussions and the content of other Wikipedia articles is extremely weak. In the absence of a clear, recent consensus of multiple editors, you really need to make your case based on citations to RS.

I would recommend that you be WP:BOLD and make the changes you believe are necessary, and if that means restoring the article to redirect status, open an WP:AFD and bring it to broader discussion. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 16:52, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

well this is actually not small discussions this has been the stand of the page since years and this was always redirected also most of the contents in the page are from news articles while main page details everything Lisa121996 (talk) 03:13, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In addition to that there were multiple pages opened in the name , if all is removed it would lead to again multiple pages. My main concern is majority of the sources are simpley recent news artciles and the article is claiming multiple things like a separate dialect for thiyya , that too in the lead . Lisa121996 (talk) 03:35, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As you recommended WP:BOLD , I have redirected the page the valid informations are :

They are also known as Ilhava, Irava, Izhava and Erava in the south of the region; as Chovas, Chokons and Chogons in Central Travancore; and as Thiyyar, Tiyyas and Theeyas in the Malabar region.^[1][2][3] Some are also known as Thandan, which has caused administrative difficulties due to the presence of a distinct caste of Thandan in the same region.^[4]

Even some form of disputes from both sides are also mentioned in the main page :

Also from a decade ownwards multiple pages related to this groups like thiyya.tiyyar,theeyya etc were redirected to the main page . So while the main page contains almost all informations from the WP:RAJ sources , I cant find them being different , this is violating all policies WP:V

WP:GNG

Definitely the raj era and historic books are weighed more than recent news articles. In addition to that the page views thiyya/ezhava as separate ethnicity , which is contrary to all the early sources and the stance of wikipedia regarding the main page Ezhava.

For eg sources all the sources i provided are used as primary by wikipedia in the main article and it openly declares both as synonymous. I can provide 10 ++ sources for the same . Lisa121996 (talk) 11:21, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The Tiyyar page is mostly copied from Ezhava page, and sources are also same. The expert on this topic @Sitush said many times that both Ezhava and Thiyya are same group, so not meeting notability critierias. But he is no active now, so the page was made i think. Is that ok? Piyush Chekavar (talk) 10:15, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I add the notability tag to article. I pinged @Sitush also, but i think he is not working these days. Piyush Chekavar (talk) 10:17, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, its not just sitush , sssb, and many other editors from the main page Ezhava have taken the same stand . The page is claiming this to be separate , if so the first article need to be split or else this is a low quality duplicate copy plus some dubious info from news articles . Also the page is saying nothing about the main page , this is violating those policies. Lisa121996 (talk) 11:05, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Rosguill Malayalam Wikipedia article exists and its been almost 10 years the article created. [[6]] Dpvl (talk) 12:43, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The article was redirected from the time it was created for like 10 years Lisa121996 (talk) 13:15, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

They are also known as Ilhava, Irava, Izhava and Erava in the south of the region; as Chovas, Chokons and Chogons in Central Travancore; and as Thiyyar, Tiyyas and Theeyas in the Malabar region.

Even some form of disputes from both sides are also mentioned in the main page :

Also from a decade ownwards multiple pages related to this groups like thiyya.tiyyar,theeyya etc were redirected to the main page . So while the main page contains almost all informations from the WP:RAJ sources , I cant find them being different , this is violating all policies WP:V

WP:GNG

Definitely the raj era and historic books are weighed more than recent news articles. In addition to that the page views thiyya/ezhava as separate ethnicity , which is contrary to all the early sources and the stance of wikipedia regarding the main page Ezhava.

For eg sources all the sources i provided are used as primary by wikipedia in the main article and it openly declares both as synonymous. I can provide 10 ++ sources for the same .

valid sources which treats both are same : The sources are attached

Lisa121996 (talk) 13:26, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Further discussion should take place at Talk:Tiyyar or another relevant discussion page, as opposed to here. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 13:25, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  yes, Before but before lifting the revision , a conclusion need to be there regarding the persisting issues .

  this was discussed way before and the conclusion was always the redirect . Lisa121996 (talk) 13:28, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  The fact that this article was in a redirect for like 10 years because of the same issue and this been discussed many times in addition to that there are more weighable sources which considers both as same , in addition to that the article is a copy version of the main page without any mention regarding that. multiple pages like tiyya was deleted previously and this was redirected. This need to be resolved before lifting the redirect . I have intiated a talk section there in the page . Lisa121996 (talk) 13:42, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi @Rosguill I dont know you are WP:INVOLVED in this or not . However since you are dealing with redirects . I would like to point out a serious issue related to this .

multiple accounts in the name thiyya, thiyyas , tiyyas etc were created previously claiming that these are distinct from Ezhava, However in all cases the consensus was that all these pages in the names "thiyya,tiyyas,thiyyas were permanently redirected to the page Ezhava. Providing the links

[[7]] [[8]] [[9]] [[10]] [[11]]

An ongoing issue of randomly lifting the redirect (only temporarily solved ) is also happening in recent Tiyyar

The irony is that these groups have again submitted another draft in the name "Thiyar" making similar claims and pointing to similar people . link - [[12]] , that means 6 th duplicate copy "Thiyar" is being created after "thiyya,tiyyas,thiyyas,thiyyar and Tiyyar My humble question is what is a permanent solution for this ?? They are simply changing the spelling and coming up with the same contents and talking about the same people. Ezhava , this is been discussed since a long time. Again since you deal with redirects is there any permanent solution to this ? I am amazed to see , How such a credible platform is being exploited by these groups simply by changing the spellings. Lisa121996 (talk) 13:42, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Lisa121996, this sounds like a case of WP:GAMENAME--step 1 is to raise the issue with the editors engaging in it on their user talk pages. If that doesn't address the issue, open a case at WP:ANI or WP:AE. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 14:14, 2 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You were the blocking admin for User:Murmayo, but just going through expiring ANI threads, I looked in at his talk page, which had additions that aren't merely TPA-revocation worthy, but cross the line into revdel territory to boot: [13]. Just thought you ought to know. Regards, Ravenswing 12:55, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ravenswing, thanks for letting me know. I've gone ahead and pulled TPA access with someone else having already wiped the page clean. I decided against REVDEL since I can't really imagine someone being disrupted by its existence in this talk page's edit history so far off the beaten path, and thus it would be excessively covering the tracks of my own admin action's. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 13:26, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Eh, no problem; that's why they pay you the big bucks. (However metaphorically.) Thank you for doing a thankless job for us all. Ravenswing 13:39, 3 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Is there anyway we can protect these articles per WP:GS/AA enforcement action? Five users, each with under 500 edits, have been changing information since May 8th, June 17th for Late Ottoman genocides. --Kansas Bear (talk) 21:46, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Done _signed, Rosguill ^talk 22:50, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you sir. --Kansas Bear (talk) 23:12, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. Could this be WP:DUCK too? Ae245 (talk) 14:35, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, looks like it. Blocked. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 15:10, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, why did you delete the article about the film Christmas Carole? This is a film which has been released and already had more references and details than plenty of long-standing film pages here. I will be reverting your deletion, but wanted to give you a chance to explain your reasoning first. Happy Evil Dude (talk) 10:04, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As I noted in the edit summary available coverage is limited to trivial pre-release PR; at most we have one article noting that it wrapped filming which might include significant coverage (paywalled, can't verify). N.b., according to cited sources it's not clear that "Christmas Carole" is more than a working title, even if the film becomes notable it may not be the primary topic for this title. This also came after another editor had already tagged it with {{notability}}. The standard that the article is being evaluated against is WP:GNG. Could you identify which sources you believe address these concerns? _signed, Rosguill ^talk 13:14, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Going through the listed sources again:

• Coverfly is a self-promotional and contest-entry website, not independent coverage
• Unifrance is a database without significant coverage
• Allocine's article is pre-release PR without significant coverage
• Scriptoclap appears to be a crowdsourced database, not significant or independent coverage
• Les Sports is perhaps the only source that begins to make a case for WP:GNG. It is paywalled and I can't evaluate it, but even assuming the absolute best of this source, we need at least one other quality source to meet GNG.
• Porquerolles Film Festival is a film festival listing a screening of the film, not significant coverage.

I did a further web search and was not able to find any additional sources. Generally speaking, the gold standard of film coverage is film reviews by professional critics or analysis by academics. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 13:21, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[14] Hmm? Daniel Case (talk) 20:47, 18 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As I noted in the following edit summary where I self-reverted, I misclicked because my watchlist refreshed while trying to pull up a diff, and instead the mouse cursor landed on rollback of your edit. Completely unintentional. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 21:22, 18 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]