Great African Reads discussion
![King Leopold's Ghost: A Story of Greed, Terror, and Heroism in Colonial Africa](https://cdn.statically.io/img/i.gr-assets.com/images/S/compressed.photo.goodreads.com/books/1348621563l/347610._SY75_.jpg)
This topic is about
King Leopold's Ghost
Tour d'Afrique A-L Books 2008-12
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Hochschild: King Leopold's Ghost | DRC (Tour D'Afrique) first read: Mar 2010
![Alex](https://cdn.statically.io/img/images.gr-assets.com/users/1633131980p1/3144945.jpg)
Stanley: The Impossible Life of Africa's Greatest Explorer;
Facing the Congo: A Modern-Day Journey into the Heart of Darkness;
and of course Heart of Darkness
But already I'm learning stuff I didn't know before, or at least seeing things from a new perspective.
Don't tell me I'm the only one who's already started this, you slackers! I need company!
![Muphyn | 711 comments](https://cdn.statically.io/img/images.gr-assets.com/users/1226965874p1/1253753.jpg)
![Melanie | 151 comments](https://cdn.statically.io/img/images.gr-assets.com/users/1185894686p1/169381.jpg)
![Alex](https://cdn.statically.io/img/images.gr-assets.com/users/1633131980p1/3144945.jpg)
Tim Jeal has a less bloodthirsty take on Stanley than Hothschild does. Hothschild does a great job of showing us that Stanley was a pathological liar; in fact, about the only thing he seems to take Stanley's word on is his horrific body count. But Jeal argues convincingly in his respectable but boring Stanley biography that the dude was probably embellishing that too.
Frequently, incidents would appear one way in Stanley's personal journal and letters home, and differently in his dispatches and books. For example, in the infamous Bumbireh incident, when his party was attacked by a large African force, he originally noted "one dead, one wounded" in his journal and in letters; by the time he wrote it up for the public, the toll had risen to 10 (and later 14). Stanley was creating an image for himself, the hardened adventurer, that he thought would appeal to people.
I don't mean to defend Stanley; he was responsible for the deaths of hundreds of porters and some number of other Africans. But I do buy Jeal's argument that he exaggerated that number.
![Andrea | 622 comments](https://cdn.statically.io/img/images.gr-assets.com/users/1668076011p1/1548050.jpg)
![Muphyn | 711 comments](https://cdn.statically.io/img/images.gr-assets.com/users/1226965874p1/1253753.jpg)
![LDB | 59 comments](https://cdn.statically.io/img/images.gr-assets.com/users/1230601259p1/416618.jpg)
![Alex](https://cdn.statically.io/img/images.gr-assets.com/users/1633131980p1/3144945.jpg)
After about the first hundred pages, Hothschild gets through the setup phase and into the occupation phase, and things get even darker real fast. It can be a little tough to handle at times. There are some bad people doing bad things up in here. But still compellingly written and engaging to read. This is a good book.
![Marieke | 2459 comments](https://cdn.statically.io/img/images.gr-assets.com/users/1306621880p1/1386971.jpg)
oooooooo confession: i never managed to read it. but at that time larry devlin died and i read some obituaries and fully intended to read his book. but i guess i got distracted! i like that our "units" are now two months long...king leopold's ghost will be a reread for me and if i read a bend in the river, that should be a quickish read...so i want to add devlin's book, especially since shoshana is reading it. is anyone thinking they will read a bend in the river?
![Marieke | 2459 comments](https://cdn.statically.io/img/images.gr-assets.com/users/1306621880p1/1386971.jpg)
After about the first hundred pages, Hothschild gets through the setup pha..."
ooo...woodworking. jealous. my grandfather was a master carpenter and built and restored furniture, some of which we have in our house. someday i hope to find out if i inherited any skills from him! when i was miserable in my first post-college job, i had dreams of running off to utah to learn how to make violins. my grandmother thought that was a great idea. probably the only person who didn't think i was out of my gourd.
how's that for off topic?
i'll attempt to tie it into africa: i'm obsessed with one-string violins from mali.
![Alex](https://cdn.statically.io/img/images.gr-assets.com/users/1633131980p1/3144945.jpg)
I have a friend who just finished and enjoyed Chief of Station. I'm trying to get him to join us.
I was really thinking I would do Bend in the River this month, but my TBR list is getting a little out of hand right now...I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to fit it in.
![Marieke | 2459 comments](https://cdn.statically.io/img/images.gr-assets.com/users/1306621880p1/1386971.jpg)
i'm ashamed to admit it, but life got in between me and my violin, which is actually my great-grandfather's violin...but my niece is inspiring me to make time for it again and i'm about to take my (great-grandfather's) violin and my great-uncle's 3/4-size violin to the shop to get fixed up. the 3/4 is for my niece. i am never parting with mine. maybe in retirement i'll make some fiddles, perhaps some with just one string...among other hair-brained schemes i dream up.
![Andrea | 622 comments](https://cdn.statically.io/img/images.gr-assets.com/users/1668076011p1/1548050.jpg)
![Marieke | 2459 comments](https://cdn.statically.io/img/images.gr-assets.com/users/1306621880p1/1386971.jpg)
who knows...maybe he'll find some kind of amazing previously unknown fiddle-making wood?! alex's wife and i will apprentice with him and he can make *our* fortunes, too! does kenyan music ever feature violin-type instruments? the only kenyan music i have heard is electric and somewhat pop-rockish. i don't recall much of a violin sound.
![Andrea | 622 comments](https://cdn.statically.io/img/images.gr-assets.com/users/1668076011p1/1548050.jpg)
![Alex](https://cdn.statically.io/img/images.gr-assets.com/users/1633131980p1/3144945.jpg)
Love your taste in books, by the way.
Glad we've got our retirement plans all figured out. :)
![Andrea | 622 comments](https://cdn.statically.io/img/images.gr-assets.com/users/1668076011p1/1548050.jpg)
![LDB | 59 comments](https://cdn.statically.io/img/images.gr-assets.com/users/1230601259p1/416618.jpg)
For retirement, or anytime really, I don't have the skills for woodcutting but would love to run away to Africa somewhere, Haiti, or southern France and write novels. Someday...
![Marieke | 2459 comments](https://cdn.statically.io/img/images.gr-assets.com/users/1306621880p1/1386971.jpg)
I think I will rearrange my readings a little bit and push a bend in the river back to the end of April. It seems like there is more discussion bubbling around chief of station (in addition to the main reading).
![Alex](https://cdn.statically.io/img/images.gr-assets.com/users/1633131980p1/3144945.jpg)
I'm gonna be so cranky this afternoon.
![Andrea | 622 comments](https://cdn.statically.io/img/images.gr-assets.com/users/1668076011p1/1548050.jpg)
I'm at the part of Chief of Station, Congo: Fighting the Cold War in a Hot Zone where Devlin has been told to assassinate a political figure.
![Judd Evans (judd1)](https://cdn.statically.io/img/images.gr-assets.com/users/1535845614p1/2904724.jpg)
Whoa, that sounds intense, I may be getting into Chief of Station soon, I'm currently halfway through King Leopold's Ghost and I think it's quite good.
![Marieke | 2459 comments](https://cdn.statically.io/img/images.gr-assets.com/users/1306621880p1/1386971.jpg)
![LDB | 59 comments](https://cdn.statically.io/img/images.gr-assets.com/users/1230601259p1/416618.jpg)
![Muphyn | 711 comments](https://cdn.statically.io/img/images.gr-assets.com/users/1226965874p1/1253753.jpg)
![Marieke | 2459 comments](https://cdn.statically.io/img/images.gr-assets.com/users/1306621880p1/1386971.jpg)
![Alex](https://cdn.statically.io/img/images.gr-assets.com/users/1633131980p1/3144945.jpg)
In King Leopold's Ghost, it's on pp. 300-304 - mostly 302. KLG deals only glancingly with events after 1908, so it's just a brief summary.
I agree with your last sentence, LDB: I would have liked to find out. Hochschild agrees too. Infuriating.
Belated edit: I don't consider the identity of the assassinated person much of a spoiler since it, y'know, actually happened, and is mentioned clearly in reviews of "Chief of Station." But should you want to keep it a mystery...do not read the next few posts. SPOILER ALERT.
![Marieke | 2459 comments](https://cdn.statically.io/img/images.gr-assets.com/users/1306621880p1/1386971.jpg)
Probably an underling--Devlin and his associate sent in to take over the plan (because Devlin dragged his heels) were both against it. Wile I haven't gotten to the assassination yet, even in retrospect Devlin finds the idea repulsive. I don't see him as bragging about it later.
![Andrea | 622 comments](https://cdn.statically.io/img/images.gr-assets.com/users/1668076011p1/1548050.jpg)
![Alex](https://cdn.statically.io/img/images.gr-assets.com/users/1633131980p1/3144945.jpg)
Marieke, that's the assassination but probably not the drunk.
Hochschild also considers it fact that the CIA is complicit in Lumumba's assassination. Here's an unusually legible and well-referenced Wikipedia bit on Lumumba's death. Of particular interest is the section on the US's involvement; it says the book Congo Cables: The Cold War in Africa--From Eisenhower to Kennedy proves that "the record shows that many communications by Devlin at the time urged elimination of Lumumba."
(It also says a bunch of other stuff, so read it if you're interested.)
I don't know who's credible in this. Devlin says that he was told to do it, and didn't because he felt it was morally wrong and would not ultimately secure the U.S.'s objectives. Even if he's accurate about his role, we know that the CIA already had a second agent involved, so there may have been more.
As to the drunk, Devlin would have been 39 at the time, a WWII veteran and not a young-looking guy in 1961.
Edited to add: I have colleagues who assert with great conviction that HIV is germ warfare developed by the CIA to depopulate Africa. I can't say whether or not that's true, but I haven't seen any evidence to support this assertion.
As to the drunk, Devlin would have been 39 at the time, a WWII veteran and not a young-looking guy in 1961.
Edited to add: I have colleagues who assert with great conviction that HIV is germ warfare developed by the CIA to depopulate Africa. I can't say whether or not that's true, but I haven't seen any evidence to support this assertion.
![Alex](https://cdn.statically.io/img/images.gr-assets.com/users/1633131980p1/3144945.jpg)
![Marieke | 2459 comments](https://cdn.statically.io/img/images.gr-assets.com/users/1306621880p1/1386971.jpg)
![Alex](https://cdn.statically.io/img/images.gr-assets.com/users/1633131980p1/3144945.jpg)
I was aware of the lactose intolerance issue - one of the big things people bring up as evidence of ongoing human evolution - but I wasn't at all aware of the powdered milk fiasco. Very interesting.
![Marieke | 2459 comments](https://cdn.statically.io/img/images.gr-assets.com/users/1306621880p1/1386971.jpg)
![Alex](https://cdn.statically.io/img/images.gr-assets.com/users/1633131980p1/3144945.jpg)
We're veering way off topic here, and this might be worth its own thread, but do you subscribe to the Dead Aid theory (my own term) that we should leave it alone and let Africa save itself?
(Horribly incomplete summary there, and I haven't even read the book. Others, like Paul Theroux, subscribe to the same general philosophy that aid is, at best, not helping. I'm not personally educated enough to have an opinion; I think both sides appear to have good points, and it sounds like a damn thorny problem.)
![Marieke | 2459 comments](https://cdn.statically.io/img/images.gr-assets.com/users/1306621880p1/1386971.jpg)
![Marieke | 2459 comments](https://cdn.statically.io/img/images.gr-assets.com/users/1306621880p1/1386971.jpg)
We're veering way off topic here, and this might be worth its own thread, but do you subscribe to the Dead Aid theory (my own term) that we should lea..."
i'm not educated enough, either, and i would also say "i think both sides appear to have good points, and it sounds like a damn thorny problem." i think one of the first and most compelling arguments i heard from an African speaking out *against* foreign aid (and caused me to start questioning the status quo) was along the lines of, "Africa has plenty of cotton. stop sending us your old shirts."
i have read a lot of really disheartening things about foreign aid and i think something is definitely awry and something needs to change. but i'm not an economist, an African, or someone who works in development...you're right, this probably deserves its own thread and i think there are a lot of new books out there looking at this problem. hopefully some members who are knowledgeable will offer their insights! but let's start a new thread for that.
![Alex](https://cdn.statically.io/img/images.gr-assets.com/users/1633131980p1/3144945.jpg)
![Marieke | 2459 comments](https://cdn.statically.io/img/images.gr-assets.com/users/1306621880p1/1386971.jpg)
My understanding of the theory of lactose tolerance evolution has to do with low exposure to sunlight in the north, giving an advantage to those genetic lines that retain the capacity to digest milk (which has various nutrients) in adulthood.
![Marieke | 2459 comments](https://cdn.statically.io/img/images.gr-assets.com/users/1306621880p1/1386971.jpg)
Books mentioned in this topic
Chasing the Devil: The Search for Africa's Fighting Spirit (other topics)Blood River: A Journey to Africa’s Broken Heart (other topics)
Blood River: A Journey to Africa’s Broken Heart (other topics)
Congo Cables: The Cold War in Africa--From Eisenhower to Kennedy (other topics)
The Teeth May Smile but the Heart Does Not Forget: Murder and Memory in Uganda (other topics)
More...
Post your thoughts!!