Talk:Five solae: Difference between revisions

Hi Philip, welcome to Wikipedia! Your idea of listing the five "Solas" in a separate article seems logical, but you might consider consolidating here information from other articles that already list some or all of the Solas - such as Protestantism and Calvinism. One way to find these references is to go to the two Sola articles (at least, that I'm aware of), Sola fide and Sola scriptura, and use the "What links here" button to see the numerous existing references. Later, Harris7 17:57, 17 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Just a note: the first four mottos are generally stated in the ablative case (hence "fide" rather than "fides") and translated as a prepositional phrase starting with "by" or "through." Thus, "Solus Christus" is usually rendered "Solo Christo."

A little history would be helpful here. When was each of these first propounded? When did each first appear in print? Which denominations believe each? When were they first grouped together? Who named them the five "solas"? - Nunh-huh 04:19, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)

In the page history, AllanBz deleted Flex's mentioning the doctrines of Mary as co-redemptrix, mediatrix, and advocate with this comment: "Flex, you were the one who wanted neutrality. Mary as co-redemptrix is not Catholic doctrine despite many who wish it so."

Flex's response:

Hi, AllanBz. I do want a neutral article, so let's work to that end. I know those doctrines are not official dogma, but they are nonetheless taught and advocated by many Catholics (e.g., MARY: Coredemptrix, Mediatrix, Advocate). One Catholic website (which was blocked but which I got through the google cache) says, "By the titles of Co-redemptrix, Mediatrix and Advocate, the Roman Catholic Church means that salvation for everyone would be obtained through Mary, and not directly from Jesus Christ. While this is in fact already taught by the Catholic Church, and has been for many years, it is not yet formally defined as binding dogma, though some Catholics feel it has already achieved that status" (emphasis theirs).

Furthermore, another Catholic website explicitly contrasts the doctrine of co-redemptrix with Solus Christus: "If Mary’s coredemptive role raises objections inside the Church, I believe it is because that there has often been an unconscious tendency on the part of Catholics in recent times to accept the fundamental Lutheran dogma of Christus solus without recognizing that Catholic doctrine has always maintained the absolute centrality and primacy of Christ but without denying the necessity of man’s collaborating with him in the work of salvation."

For this reason, I think the doctrines should be contrasted in this article. We can certainly qualify it with something like "which are taught by many in the Catholic Church though they are not official dogmas as of 2005." What do you think? --Flex 12:52, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I like Flex's compromise. I don't believe that Mary is officially co-redemptix in Roman Catholicism, but there are probably some who believe that to be standard doctrine. KHM03 13:10, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

KHM03, "some who believe" does not make Catholic doctrine. While "some" may believe this, the Catholic Church is, unlike the many Protestant faiths, a single entity with a single teaching Magisterium. A few websites—or even a great many websites—that overstate their cases for a particular cause do not necessarily make a significant current within mainline Catholic thought, and certainly do not define doctrine. If it were so, Catholic doctrine would be hip-deep in women priests, condoms, and murdered fetal children. Some of these causes have a larger base of support than the matter at hand and are not doctrinal, nor will ever be. —AllanBz 18:04, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

AllanBz, I know that it is not RC doctrine, and it may never be so. BUT...Scriptural inerrancy (for example) is not official Methodist doctrine, but there are still many Methodists who believe in it...and may actually incorrectly believe it to be the official position of the denomination. By the same token, is it possible that some Roman Catholics believe Mary to be co-redemptrix, regardless of the official position of that denomination? I think it's not only possible...it probably exists. It's an error, sure, but that doesn't make it any less real. Methodists, Roman Catholics, Presbyterians...pick a denomination...all have folks who believe in things contrary to official teaching. Isn't that a fair assessment? KHM03 18:32, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Afternoon, Flex. FAQ 6 in the voxpopuli site explicitly states that it is not doctrine, though they spin it as if it were forthcoming. I accept the contrast, but would rather leave the Marian bits out, as I last edited the article; the original Marian phrase overstates the case and, as it is not doctrinal, undermines the veracity of the article. The phrase beginning "...which are taught by many..." is also misleading, because if it is taught outside the Magisterium, it wouldn't be a Catholic teaching, but a personal one, a "tradition of men." (ahem) If the doctrine is ever defined ex cathedra, pop it back in. —AllanBz 18:04, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your response, AllanBz. I agree that Catholic dogma is not created by counting noses, but widespread support can certainly have an effect on the development of Catholic doctrine (cf. the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, which was much disputed but also quite popular and eventually dogmatized). Also compare the response of Vox Populi to your objection (Objection 5). Can you make an educated guess at how popular the notion is in the church? Are the advocates of Mary as Co-redemptrix quite common, unexceptional, or rare? --Flex 18:25, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Hello all; KHM03 asked me to wade in here and offer some "expert testimony." First, I feel it necessary to say that I am not a specialist in Mariology (mariologist?); I am a scholar of Roman Catholicism. That said, it is incredibly difficult to study the RCC and not run across Mary.

As I understand the current official position of the Church, Mary ''is and is not co-redemptrix. By this I mean, there is no official proclamation that states: "Mary is the co-redemptrix." However, there are many recorded occasions where John Paul II (a Marian devotee if there ever was one) publicly referred to Mary with the phrase "co-redemptrix."

I believe the central problem is that the term co-redemptrix is misunderstood. My understanding is that when JPII used the phrase "co-redemptrix" what he meant was this: Mary was at the Crucifixion, and by an act of faith, she offered up Jesus to be crucified in submission to God's will, and she offers herself up spiritually to be crucified with Jesus. In this way, she "participates" in redemption. No, she did not redeem man; only Jesus redeemed man. "Co-redemption" does not mean she was equally responsible for redemption, that she redeemed man, that she in any way "took away" anything Jesus did. Rather, she is "co-redemptrix" because she performed an "additional" act.

It is a very complex issue, one compounded by each reader's faith background. Each denomination understands the mystery of salvation differently, and each person brings that understanding to the table. Thus, a term like "co-redemptrix" that makes sense to Catholics, based on their background, is foreign to a non-Catholic. (It's often also foreign to Catholics, as all Catholics do not have an extensive history of doctrinal education.) I have developed an illustration that I think makes the point, but I believe it may be offensive to some. I present it here, and I offer my profuse apologies to anyone who is offended.

Replace the crucifixion with an assasination (let's say Jesus assasinates "Death"), and replace the term "co-redemptrix" with "co-conspiritor." Jesus is the main assasin, He actually shoots Death. He doesn't come up with the plan, God does (so He's a co-conspirator too, as mastermind). However, Jesus is the One who buys the gun, loads it, and pulls the trigger. Mary's role is this: She stands at Jesus' side, hands Him stuff, and cheers Him on. She doesn't have to; Jesus can kill death all by Himself, without any help, but Mary voluntarily choses to be an accessory. She's a co-conspirator, not because she actually killed Death, but because she was there and she took part in the overall activity.

Hence, Mary is co-redemptrix not because she actually redeemed man, but because she was there when Jesus redeemed man, she consented to it in an act of submission to the Will of God, and she voluntarily offered herself up (spiritually) to be crucified with Him. Her participation is her submission.

I hope this helps clear up the confusion. Within the context of this article, I think it is advisable to leave "co-redemptrix" out of the mix for two reasons: 1) Co-redemptrix has not been promulgated as an official doctrine, by which I mean that the Pope has never put on the pointy hat and said "Attention all Catholics! This is an ex cathedra pronouncement: Mary is the co-redemptrix." nor has there been an official publication (with a nice Latin name that nobody can pronounce) on the subject of Mary's co-redemptrix-ness; and 2) the term "co-redemptrix" is inherrently confusing and will not be understood by the vast majority of readers of any faith. If included in this article, the term will be misunderstood, and the reader will be misinformed. (We want to inform the reader, not misinform them!) However, I think an article titled "co-redemptrix" is in order; perhaps the contributors here could collaborate on such an article, and then the reference could be added to this article with a bluelink to "Co-redemptrix" so readers will not be misinformed.

I cannot speak to the popularity of the notion in the Church; I'm not Catholic, I just study Catholicism. (I know, all this Catholicism stuffed in my head, and I'm not even one of 'em!) Essjay (talk) 00:39, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)