High Tier Tournament R3: Thenamelessone vs chimeroid

I've been through your post a few times. It is... Interesting to say the least. I mean, the scaling and the math are very questionable, based on many assumptions, and clearly not what the author intended. But, to hell with it. Instead of trying to argue feats vs weird-ass calcs, I will just use the same approach to describe my characters in this debate. All I will be asking is to use the same standards for my characters that you used for your own.

I really hoped you decided to use your entire team here when I saw you didn't just go with the "Dante solos" approach. It's really bad-mannered and makes the debate much less fun. But, as I've already decided to match your approach and energy. I think I can do the same. I will still introduce Thors but for the purposes of your opener, i will show how Loki can pretty much effortlessly handle the Shonen duo. I will go into a lot of detail later. For now:

• Size manipulation
• Shapeshifting
• Invisibility
• Intangibility
• Elemental manipulation
• Summoning
• Illusions
• Replication
• Telepathy
• Hypnosis
• Teleportation
• Telekinesis
• Strength sapping/transfer
• Soul transfer
• Astral projection
• Binding/cursing/enchanting/spell breaking
• Clairvoyance
• Transmutation
• Animation
• Healing
• Resurrection
• Temporal manipulation

One of the most common magical items (well, a set of items) that Loki reaches for when he or his friends need a bit of an "oomph". He can teleport the stones to himself at will and is the last known user of the set, he would usually just have them on his person. He can use them both in and out of combat to amp up the team and support as needed.

Without any magical skills, one can use the Stones to simply grant themselves wishes retaining to their person. Want more power? Poof, you got it. Stuff like that. For Loki, it's different. It's better. He can do whatever he wants.

For starters, he can just use the Norn Stones to blanketly amp everyone as he did right before his early demise in Reign.

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Void was shown as clearly superior to even the mightiest of these heroes to the degree that they appeared almost helpless in front of him. And Loki was capable of even amping Captain America to the tier of being capable of actually harming the Void with his shield tosses.

This also healed them to full health when it was needed. This is in line with dozens of other showings of the Norn stones instantly healing people and even resurrecting fallen comrades. He can also revive the dead if somehow that transpires.

What else can the Norn Stones do? Basically anything. They are in a way analogous to the Hogyoku that Aizen created, in the sense that, through them, anything is possible. The list of feats includes, but isn't limited to:

"Intangibility, invisibility, magical binding, magic amping, mental projection, physical and power amping. reanimation, teleportation, transmutation"

So, for the purposes of the debate, Loki can replicate every single feat he ever had, and easily outperform himself thanks to the power of the Stones.

Loki is a God, and not just that, but he is a very accomplished spellcasting god. He has tools in his belt to deal with these two with relative ease. Not only are his attacks straight-up deadly, but his defenses are beyond what your team can do. Of course, I will go in detail. Thankfully, you laid out a perfectly simple plan to follow.

Here's a quick summary of your plan.

a. Rely on defenses

b. Spam Kamui

c. Use Kyoka Suigetsu's ability.

Unfortunately, that won't necessarily work. Loki has everything he needs to bypass your defenses, kill Kakashi, and put Aizen down.

Look, let me say it outright. I don't buy into the way you scale speed. It's honestly silly.

And it takes you 886 words, a questionable databook entry not made by Kishimoto, 18 scans of which Kakashi isn't present in any, and scaling for hours to argue that you have to be 250 times the speed of light to tag Kaguya. At the same time, the verse actually has other, quantifiable pieces of proof that lightspeed is beyond them. Like Pain's 5-second break between push and pull techniques that was "too short of a time window to attack him" in chapter 423. Or when Gaara and Sakura took a long ass time to cross "a few kilometers" to take Naruto to Minato in chapter 663, Gaara was specifically going at max speed.

Do you know how you show someone is lightspeed? With a scan. If it takes one scan, it's a clean-cut feat, if it takes two or three, it's a scaling, that could be done well or badly. If it takes 5, it's a reach. If you need:

• a thousand words,
• 18 scans
• questionable math,
• databook entries,
• a chain of scaling that goes on for ages

It's just bunk.

Not to mention that your scans and claims break the scaling chains multiple times. For example, you used Sasuke's claim to show that Kaguya is faster than Madara, but all Sasuke said was that she has more Chakra. Not that she is faster. And, even worse, the same Madara you somehow are scaling Kakashi above, took Kakashi's eye out in chapter 674 with no effort. Kakashi absolutely does not scale above Madara in any way shape or form.

But, let's ignore all that. Let's take your approach at face value. However, let's play the game fairly. And let's apply your own logic and approach to

At the speed of thought, loki deflects Mjolnir.

This is a reaction feat for Loki's magic, we can see he didn't move his body, but he casts spells by just thinking about them, and he can literally cast them instantly "At the speed of thought".

How fast is the speed of thought in the Marvel Universe?

The "speed of thought" sounds vague, but it actually isn't. Marvel has actually gone out of their way to tell us exactly how fast thoughts in Marvel are. For starters, and at the very least, we know it's significantly faster than light.

Confirmed in the Ultimates.

But, it doesn't actually end there. The Speed of Thought actually has a quantified speed feat in Marvel Fanfare 51.

(Marvel Fanfare Vol 1 #51)

Even at the speed of thought, a THOUSAND GALAXIES WOULD TAKE SEVERAL MOMENTS to Cross. A thousand galaxies. Let's just call it a massive overestimate and hyperbolic and instead let's just say the brain blast had to cross a SINGLE GALAXY instead. And, let's say it's our Galaxy. Our Galaxy alone is 105,000 lightyears across.

So, assuming just one galaxy instead of a thousand, the speed of thought would still cross 105,000 lightyears in "a few moments". Let's lowball that as much as humanly possible, and say that "A few moments" actually means "A full year".

If we did actual math, the number would have 17 zeroes btw.

(To be precise, it would be able to cross 549,500,000 light-years in 1 second!)

Which translates to 152,638 lightyears per hour. This is billions of times faster than the speed of light. Your poultry math showcasing 250FTL doesn't even come close to this comparison.

If you still want to keep up with using this type of "scaling" at least use the same standards for my feats as well.

Outside of using your logic to scale Loki to insane speeds, I did plan on using regular and easily applicable speed feats for Loki. For example, once he noticed radio waves going to the Fantastic Four, thought about it, and redirected them.

This, BTW, in the very first Avenger comic ever. As we know, radio waves are literally just light, and thus they travel at lightspeed. He intercepted them and changed them.

The next few scans are also very telling:

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In these three feats alone, we can see that Loki's reaction time can actually measure up to the likes of the Silver Surfer. A character known for his insane speed feats. If you are curious about this scaling, feel free to press it, and then try to argue how Kakashi is faster than Norin Radd. That would be a fun debate to have.

And, Loki also boasts any number of feats dodging Mjolnir. Such as this one.

He can also, quite casually let things pass through him (much like Kakashi can), quickly enough that a hammer throw can't tag him.

And, he can fly quickly, dancing around Surtur's attacks.

He can let your attacks pass through him, while at the same time casting spells instantaneously turning your team to snow, depowering them, creating weapons that can oneshot them, scrambling their brains, negating their own spells and attacks. And downright beating them.

In your opener, you concluded with this sentence:

awareness and knowledge would be required to even get past Kakashi's Kamui defense, best of luck

And yes, in a small way, I agree. Not fully, because you did misrepresent Kakashi a fair amount by using his bluffs and his seriously short-lived version, but still, I can see what you are going for. Thankfully, Loki has an amazing ability to pick up knowledge on his opponents for free.

Now, I KNOW that you are a Naruto expert and that anything I say here is already known to you. But that makes it so much worse. you are specifically using a temporarily amped Kakashi in this debate. Kakashi does not have two Sharingan eyes, he doesn't have the chakra reserves to Spam Kamui, he cannot use Susanoo, and he can't use mass shadow clones.

All of your feats come from a total of 1 issue when he was amped by Obito giving him 6-path chakra and his own chakra and sharing powers, temporarily.

This time limit that Kakashi has is literally your timer in this debate. Kakashi spends this energy and he's out.

Kakashi only received this influx of Obito's chakra and powers in Chapter 688, and he only used those powers in 689. He immediately spent this temporary amp. As for your "Kamui spam" approach.

He used a total of:

1. 4 Kamui Shuriken
2. ONE Kamui Raikiri.
3. He also used Kamui to remove one needle.

And the result of that exertion he was down and out.

I get it. You purchased this specific version of Kakashi. I'm cool with that. But you can't just combine this version with whatever else you want. When using this highly specific version of Kakashi, you only get this one chapter's worth of feats.

He was completely gassed after a total of a few seconds of Susanoo and 4 Kamui attempts. That's all you have. And, with your strategy of spamming clones and Kamui, Kakashi would be out in a millisecond.

As for your "Infinite Kage Bunshin" claim and scan. I'm sorry, but you know full well it was a bluff by Kakashi. He does not have enough chakra to use Kage Bunshin like that.

Now, I am aware that this was specifically Kakashi tired after fighting Zabuza. But, with or without that fact, this "feat" was a bluff. You need to show Kakashi's combat application for mass shadow clones. However, we have, on page, seen that a single lightning shadow clone costs Kakashi HALF of his chakra reserve.

(Image keeps breaking, link here)

But, speaking of clones, Loki himself can spam clones quite easily.

He did it against Thor many times.

He even did it against Surtur.

For this section, we will briefly touch upon the nature of Kyoka Suigetsu and how it works. We know it's not actual illusion casting, so it can only be one of two things:

1. Telepathic in nature

2. A magical mind effect

And, unfortunately for you, both of those are covered by Loki's resistance. He has one of the most powerful minds in all of Marvel. Naturally, you will want to argue with a full no-limit fallacy and argue that there is no resisting KS. But, the issue we're running into is that nobody in Bleach really has ways of dealing with either TP or magical hallucinations. Something Loki doesn't have an issue with.

If KS mechanically works in a manner similar to telepathy, then someone's telepathic prowess should absolutely be applied as a defensive mechanism. And Loki has battled Odin in a telepathic mano-a-mano. He lost, granted. But he held him off for a few instants, and that's no small feat. Odin himself has been proven equal to Galactus (in TP as well as combat) and has, on occasion, used his powers to affect the entire universe. And, let's face it, in terms of Comic Book telepathy, KS is nothing special.

He has other, more reasonable feats as well, and against different types of control:

Controller's slave discs didn't work on controlling Loki's mind

Amora's (Enchantress) magical charms don't work on Loki, and Amora's powers work on the likes of Onslaught. and The Hulk. Many others as well, but these are famous for their telepathic resistance or powers.

Not to mention that, since merging with KS, Aizen has lost quite a lot of his control. Where before he would choose every bit of what is seen and felt by his enemies, since the merger, it is a passive effect that he has no control over. As signified by your own scan showing that he had no idea what Yhwach was seeing.

And, most importantly, he only made Yhwach see him as Ichigo, didn't achieve anything. He didn't even use KS to dodge an attack. All he could do was make Yhwach think he was fighting one opponent when he was fighting another.

Alternatively, we can assume KS works as a spell, in which case, Loki's talent at counterspelling his opponents will come in handy.

For example, even when in Seth's domain, he could dispel his binding spells with ease. The same Seth who could stand and bang with Odin affecting all planes of reality at once. Galaxies were destroyed and dead suns reignited. Loki openly admits that Seth is significantly more powerful, but Loki is more skilled, and more cunning.

Loki's skill in magic allowed him to defend himself and counter spells from a Skyfather who is thousands if not millions of times more powerful than him. As far as more reasonable dispels go, he casually dispelled Dr Strange's attempts to hold him. Dispelin Kyoka Suigetsu seems trivial in comparison.

I mean, if you want, I can share an insane number of scans of Loki countering the spells of his opponents, as a true Sorcerer Supreme of Marvel 616, he is the best at it. Literally, he recently fought Dr Strange who amped himself with more power than he ever had, and Loki was still matching him and dispelling his attacks (Doctor Strange 383-385)

All that being said, Kamui isn't a trivial ability, should Kakashi manage to fire it off before Loki turns him into a popsicle and kills him, one would imagine my team would be in trouble. Unfortunately for you, that couldn't be further from the truth.

Loki is adept at both traveling between dimensions much easier than Kakashi can and at even straight up using his powers from a different dimension.

For example, he frequently travels from Asgard to Earth (and yes, Asgard is absolutely a separate dimension), and he has frequently used his powers across the universes, from Asgard to Midgard, this includes him giving powers to Sandu, attacking Dr Strange, sending his Astral form, and many other feats. IF you wish to see them, just ask.

Loki is an incredibly fast (already established) and incredibly skilled spellcaster. In this battle, all he needs to do is use one of his spells (either amped by the Norn Stones or not) and simply transmute your duo into something far less daunting. Like snow, for example.

And, for some context, the being being transmuted into harmless snow is none other than Bor, Odin's Father and a Skyfather in his own right.

Bor is insanely powerful. In his fight with Odinforce Thor, Thor outright admits that he would have gotten oneshot if he didn't have his father's power. In the same fight, Bor effortlessly caught Mjolnir and tossed it aside like a piece of trash.

And, the funniest part of that entire fight? Bor was under Loki's mind control in that story. (Thor 600)

So, Loki has shown himself to be capable of both mind-controlling and transmuting a being on the level of a Skyfather. And, with his ability to cast spells at the "Speed of thought". Both Aizen and Kakashi are in grave danger.

And, since I did notice you really did focus on Aizen's power level a lot, I assume you will want to argue that Aizen is too powerful for Loki to affect. However, as we have seen, Loki had no issues affecting Bor, but, if that is not enough for you, Loki has also fought Sise-Neg to a standstill in Loki Unleashed.

And Sise-Neg, while unrefined, has in himself literally the power of a Big Bang.

Now, it is indeed explained by the Living Tribunal that Sise-Neg lacked the wisdom to use his powers (and likely the skill necessary to do anything), but it further cements that Loki's cunning and skill with magecraft allow him to punch way above his weight class in magical duels.

Do you wish to do a calculation of how many Joules Sise-Neg can create?

Aizen and his Hogyoku are a tough nut to crack, that's for sure. Any straightforward team would run into a lot of issues trying to get around it. Thankfully, Loki has no such limitation. Not only can he spam a multitude of different ways to put Aizen out, keeping Hogyoku on its toes, maybe even outright overpowering the device with his own powers, or using the Norn Stones to affect Aizen in ways the Hogyokyu can't counter. But he can also do a very specific thing - Create Power Negating Weapons.

In one story (Mighty Avengers 32-35) Loki wanted to have some fun, so he let Creel absorb the powers of a cosmic cube. And, Creel, while clearly being an idiot, was capable of utilizing those powers effectively:

I want to get one thing straight - The Cosmic Cube is in every way, shape, and form better than the Hogyoku. It's a source of a larger power with more creative applications. But, for the purposes of this debate, we can equate the two. It even allows Creel to heal in a manner similar to Aizen's. He has complete control over his molecules, and he cannot be harmed by combined powers of Hercules and Vision.

At this point, you must be wondering why I'm bringing it up. Well, Creel was taken down. Quite easily in fact, by an artifact that Loki created.

And, when that Spellbreaker was used on a Cosmic-Cube powered up Absorbing Man that was mopping the floor with the likes of Sentry and the crew with minimal effort, what do you think happened?

Well, he was instantly and fully defeated:

I am not necessarily saying that Loki will use the exact same trick. He rarely does. Instead, Loki leverages his bag of tricks to find new and creative ways to resolve issues all the time.

This was a casual feat for him, something he was doing for the fun of it. He has, on occasion, depowered enemies in multiple ways, reduced their strength, sapped their willpower, or negatively impacted their minds in hundreds of ways. He has found ways to impact the mightiest of foes when all seemed like it is way outside of his weight class.

Would he create the exact same sword? Maybe. Maybe not.

But, would he figure out a different way to affect Aizen? Definitely. I am looking forward to you challenging this claim, because it will get more intense in the coming rounds.

Every single feat i shared for Loki is fully legitimate. I didn't misrepresent or lie about the feats. And, the scaling is also "legitimate". However, even with that being said, it's not how I, or even a significant number of people on the Vine believe feats should be quantified.

As you can see, when you apply the same standards that he used for his team on Loki alone, we get numbers that boggle the mind. Speeds that are millions or billions of times faster than anyone would have ever guessed. Power levels that go so far beyond limits of any reasonable or unreasonable tournament for comicvine that I should absolutely be banned if I actually argued those power levels and speeds for my team.

Here's a fact - Nobody in this debate is that powerful. Squad Zero people don't have the power to destroy the Sun 22 times over, no matter how many times TNO may try to sell that idea in this debate. Aizen, being tremendously more powerful than all of them combined, would, by his logic, be so far above the limits of the tournament, he should excuse himself instead of waiting for a ban.

But, more than likely, that shouldn't happen for one very simple reason - We all know none of that stands under scrutiny.

Narutoverse is not 250 times faster than light. Squad Zero captains aren't powerful enough to oneshot the Sun 22 times over individually. It's just not how those verses are written. And where does TNO get the scaling going for this feat? Based on an off-hand statement about how their powers would make "Heaven and Earth Tremble" followed by a link that doesn't show it quite like that. Furthermore, scaled Aizen above them based on his own Masturbatory monologue. That monologue was made when he didn't know about the likes of Ichibei. He doesn't automatically scale above the likes of Squad Zero at all.

"Also think about the fact that just one member "flicking their wrist" caused the three worlds to tremble"

Did she flick her wrist, or use her Bankai and all of her powers for that?

Hell, nobody in my team is that powerful either. But, if we wanted to apply the same logic (TNO Calculated through Inverse Square Law the power for the distance of 3 million kilometers) we can apply it to Jane's feat of stopping a Supernova:

That's a trillion lightyears away - and planets "shook". If you applied the same "Inverse Square Law" logic that he used, you would get a feat that's trillions of times more powerful than his best claim.

To be clear, Squad Zero's best quantifiable feat (anime-only Bankai release) wouldn't even register as a rounding error compared to this feat if we were considering "Distance to worlds shaking" as a proper way to measure feats. If you deduct 3 million from a trillion, you are still left with a trillion.

Now, tell me, does anyone here actually believe that Jane Thor is billions of times more powerful than Star level?

Does anyone really buy into it?

And, if you don't buy into it for Thor, why should you accept it blindly for Aizen?

Authors don't do math like that, they don't think in advanced physics terms. Jane's feat is a feat of stopping a Supernova. Nothing more, nothing less.

Aizen's feats cap at range-continental or slightly higher. Nobody in Bleach is truly going around one-shoting 22 stars at a time. I mean, everyone was shocked when Kenpachi had to use his Shikai to destroy a meteor. A meteor that was calculated to be roughly 1.5 kilometers in diameter by pixel measurements. That's not "Star level" or even near.

But, here's the thing, someone else calculated that meteor to be over 150km in diameter. And, a third person somehow got it to 5,000 kilometers. How is that possible? Simple really, feats weren't supposed to be pixel-measured or calculated to the nth degree. Manga authors don't care about accurate sizes of things, distances, or even time measurements; especially not in these situations when something should be so large that it couldn't be possibly shown on screen along with human-sized protagonists.

The same thing goes for you calculating 3 million kilometers of distance to the Soul King's palace. Fact is, we have no idea how it works or how far it is. Is Ichigo equally good at Marathon running as he is at blitzing back and forth? Does something change? Did Kubo Tite envision this feat to mean that the palace is 3 million kilometers away?

If so, how did Yhwachs Auswahlen (which is literally light) work in seconds, and not take 9 hours?

(Please Understand The Point Of The Rant -- The point is that the measurements in detail, or calcs for distances simply don't work the way people imagine them to work, it's an arbitrary number the folks pull out of their asses).

Anyway, this rant is over. You can choose that we either go by feats shown on the page in a simple and straightforward manner, or to use your dribble to "calculate" the amount of joules for each feat based on vague author statements or offhand comments, or any number that would serve your argument. All I ask of you, and the voters is to use the same method for both of us, whichever method you choose.

This is probably the most relevant part of the debate. The interactions that we would see between these characters. Unfortunately for you, Loki is just too good at casting spells. Kakashi has exactly 0 defenses against spells. He is instantly down and out. And even if he tries to put up a fight, his chakra reserves do not hold up in this situation.

Then, we have Aizen with Hogyoku VS Loki with the Norn Stones. That's pretty much what it is. And, Loki is just the better of the two.

He is faster, he fought characters that are much more powerful than Aizen, and he is a lot more varied with his power applications.

The Norn Stones vs Hogyoku is a whole other debate that i believe we will end up going into.

But, Loki's feat of putting down a living Cosmic Cube at least hints at Loki being able to do the same to Hogyoku-powered individuals.

I believe the telepathy vs magical effect of Kyoka Suigetsu is a third debate we will have. But, it is not an illusion. It is specifically, an effect that works directly on the senses of those affected. So, naturally, telepathic or magical resistances have to apply.

Overall, your post was a lot of fun. And it was good. We do have the question of what type of scaling we want to use. But, whichever method we do end up using, I think I have satisfied the criteria to prove that Loki is well above what Kakashi and Aizen have done.

You taking Dual Mangekyo Sharingan Kakashi is a double-edged sword. It is a powerful version of him, but with a very short lifespan (very temporary amp for this version) and with a very small reserve of Chakra compared to your strategy. Since you already outlined what you wish to do - Kage Bunshin and Kamui spam - we can safely conclude that you are planning on overtaxing Kakashi from the get-go.

Aizen is a problem with his abilities, but his EOS form has absorbed his sword, which turned his KS into a passive effect, while taking away his fine control of the power. He no longer even knows what his opponents see. Instead, in your own scan, he has to figure it out based on Yhwach's words.

Furthermore, he couldn't use it to dodge attacks. It was just a "costume change" in a way. Followed by 2 "illusions" one of himself, and one of Renji. Which is why he got wrecked by Yhwach. Even though KS was working on Yhwach perfectly, Aizen still got his arm torn off and his body grievously injured.

On the flip side. Loki has an answer to KS from a number of angles. if we are looking at the Kyoka Suigetsu as a telepathic ability, then we can safely say that Loki's telepathy is powerful enough to overcome the attack. If we are looking at it as a magical attack, we can use his counterspells and defensive magics to dispel them.

But, for both of your team members (for now) the simple spell of turning them into snow, or wood would be enough.

I could even see Loki manipulating their minds like he did Bor's.

Well, I am one of the people who appreciate effort, care and time put into posts, all these elements to me go out and show someone is actually into the debate and somewhat passionate around it, it's a fairly important thing in my eyes and I'm one of those people who would be more frustrated getting a 800 word response than an 8,000 word response. But at many points you make mistakes in your counterarguments and your views toward a lot of my debating points and styles look a little close-minded, and at a lot of points you make the assumptions I'm hitting the ceiling when I'm barely getting off the floor. So, as there are many points of discontinuity there is a lot for me to correct, and indeed I will apply my line of thinking to your character whenever you ask me to, but just another spoiler, that would not go well for you.

I really hoped you decided to use your entire team here when I saw you didn't just go with the "Dante solos" approach. It's really bad-mannered and makes the debate much less fun. But, as I've already decided to match your approach and energy. I think I can do the same. I will still introduce Thors but for the purposes of your opener, i will show how Loki can pretty much effortlessly handle the Shonen duo. I will go into a lot of detail later. For now:

Now, you see, this is what I call mental filtering, when presented with multiple possibilities of why I only used two characters instead of using Dante as well, you refer to the idea about me being bad mannered or sucking the fun out of the debate when an equally likely and more logically prevelant interpretation of me running out of time when I literally posted on what was my second extension and right on deadline, existed. I do not know why exactly you would refer to such a line of thinking but you did, if I did have more time I would've used Dante as well but now if a threat is truly presented I will still reveal Dante.

Now, your response is big, as it's a mixture of both an opener and a response, and you go over many concepts and it's surely brave of you to chain wrestle me on HST content, so I'm going to cover everything as you clearly put in a lot of effort and definitely do deserve to be rewarded with an effort from the opposition as well. So, my post would've three overarching sections, one countering everything you said about Naruto, one about Bleach, and one about Loki and the generation matchup.

And it takes you 886 words, a questionable databook entry not made by Kishimoto, 18 scans of which Kakashi isn't present in any, and scaling for hours to argue that you have to be 250 times the speed of light to tag Kaguya. At the same time, the verse actually has other, quantifiable pieces of proof that lightspeed is beyond them. Like Pain's 5-second break between push and pull techniques that was "too short of a time window to attack him" in chapter 423. Or when Gaara and Sakura took a long ass time to cross "a few kilometers" to take Naruto to Minato in chapter 663, Gaara was specifically going at max speed.

while one can use the whole Pain 5-second window thing, that is a level of speed so ridiculously low for the verse that it would automatically go into the outlier folder, even as early as the very first arc of the story you've people effortlessly dicking on sound attacks, infact, here is kids effortlessly reacting to sound.

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there are many many examples of this, for example Rock Lee with tons of weight on four of his limbs moved so fast that he was practically invisible to Sasuke's perception, same Sasuke who fights FTE all the time

or another example of Kakashi cutting lightning, as a child not in the right mental state.

or hell, there would be another example of where all the Jonin's perceptions blitzed Neji from a large distance. more or less, the Pain thing is an outlier compared to the feats the verse achieved in the very FIRST part of the manga, there is no real need to override scaling based on that.

but more importantly, Why would DMS Kakashi, a certified god tier, be affected by the scaling from the likes of....Pain... was physically on level with Sage Naruto and a much stronger Sage Naruto got instantly blitzed by a blind Madara.

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and this Madara was before Ten-Tails and Sage Mode, but if by using Pain you want to throw a wrench in my overall scaling and disrupt it in the very middle, I can simply post a plethora of feats from part 1 to present that as just what it is an outlier.

Not sure what you were trying to do with the Gaara instance. Gaara as a child has shown explosion timing feats with his sand.

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the argument you're using is not taking into account the general wild disparity between Travel speed and combat speed that exists in pretty much every old-gen anime, I would happily and easily present tens of different examples of anime having a disparency between travel speed and combat speed, pretty sure it exists in comics as well but it's generally the other way around.

Do you know how you show someone is lightspeed? With a scan. If it takes one scan, it's a clean-cut feat, if it takes two or three, it's a scaling, that could be done well or badly. If it takes 5, it's a reach. If you need:

I disagree.

it seems like you're focusing on the quantity rather than the quality, focusing on the argumentative tools rather than focusing on how the tools are utilized and what for. Your logic is functional in that you should only take a few tools to a project, but if the project is not to simply prove FTL then you should take multiple.

frankly, if my idea was to simply prove FTL scaling then I agree with you

a thousand words,

18 scans

Do a distributive breaking

2 Scans were for an FTL+ reaction speed feat, the next few were to show characters at a level DO scale to that speed, and then I made a point of how I'm lowballing the multiplier that would logically be presented by KCM2 so that we get a conservative result if I wanted to I could just post the 5× scan for the first gate and proof KCM2 to be a greater transformation and that would be done in 2 posts but I posted more scans to show that I'm being conservative, Don't believe me? let's do a rundown.

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these are just two scans I posted, and a basic 7th or 8th standard physics formula attached to get a solid factual result, we're at 2 scans for speed right now.

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all of these scans, which make up the bulk of the 18 scans you refer to, are regarding how Sage Mode is a huge multiplier, and at the end, I say that I'll lowball and refer to only the 5× concrete multiplier that is the First Gate and every other scan is dedicated to showing why that number is conservative and why the multiplier being 5 times is an underestimation rather than an overestimation.

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these two are just there to explain why Kakashi scales to the god level and why God tiers would blitz Minato and scale to his reaction speed.

Your "18 scans" figure comes off as...inaccurate when one considers that the vast majority of scans were dedicated to further advancing the legitimacy of certain things rather than anything else, the actual argument can be summed up in 5 scans.

1. Two scans of the initial feat and the basic derived result.
2. one scan of the first gate being 5× and one argument of why Sage mode is much above the Fifth gate.
3. One scan of God tiers scaling to Sennin Minato's reaction speed and one of Kakashi scaling to god tiers.

that's that, everything else is supplementary and there entirely to add legitimacy to the idea that Sage Mode is much greater than the first gate AND that I'm underestimating the multiplier.

questionable math,

If you find my maths questionable you're welcome to discuss it, generally, I just used one multiplier and one very basic calculation for the initial feat, as I always say in every post and every blog I make, If you disagree, feel free to question anything.

databook entries,

now I saw you above mention something about the Naruto databooks not being written by Kishi, now you're not entirely incorrect, you're just mostly incorrect, as the Naruto databooks are confirmed collaborative projects where Kishi WAS involved.

First of all, thank you all for picking up this book !! Thanks to the support of all the fans, the world of "NARUTO" has continued to expand, and I'm truly happy that we were able to create such a wonderful book.

the above comes from Mashashi Kishimoto, it's a greenlit project by the mangaka, as well as something that he worked on in the form of collaboration and seemed to be the main person behind it, the Shueisha official site says he is the writer as well, no argument against the utilization of it is possible.

a chain of scaling that goes on for ages

thet is entirely related to again, Sage Mode being much greater of a boost than

Now, this is a very rookie mistake I did not expect you to make

Not to mention that your scans and claims break the scaling chains multiple times. For example, you used Sasuke's claim to show that Kaguya is faster than Madara, but all Sasuke said was that she has more Chakra. Not that she is faster.

This is Naruto 101, more chakra levels under normal circumstances lead to greater speed, there are honestly far too many examples of this but for an example, here is base Naruto getting demolished by Neji.

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here is Naruto with a little amp from Kurama matching upto Neji in every way, even being faster if anything.

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here is an example of all physical attributes being linked to chakra levels, even your reaction speed for example.

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there are just so many examples of chakra boosts amping character's speed in Naruto it would be a waste of time to list all, but Kaguya is basically Madara's body + a ton of chakra, obviously she would be somewhat faster at the bare minimum.

And, even worse, the same Madara you somehow are scaling Kakashi above, took Kakashi's eye out in chapter 674 with no effort. Kakashi absolutely does not scale above Madara in any way shape or form.

Brother, this version of Madara had absorbed the God tree, which is the final form of the Ten Tails, and thus was obviously more powerful than the version I mentioned.

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and on top, you messed up again, you listed a feat from Pre-Six Path Kakashi vs Ten Tails + God Tree Madara, while I was comparing Six Paths Kakashi to Ten Tails Madara.

But, let's ignore all that. Let's take your approach at face value. However, let's play the game fairly. And let's apply your own logic and approach to Loki to see how fast he turns out to be.

Yeah, you're free to do that but you've to take responsibility if your feats go over the tier, and you've to keep up with the versions of characters I'm discussing at the very least.

As for your "Infinite Kage Bunshin" claim and scan. I'm sorry, but you know full well it was a bluff by Kakashi. He does not have enough chakra to use Kage Bunshin like that.

Now, I am aware that this was specifically Kakashi tired after fighting Zabuza. But, with or without that fact, this "feat" was a bluff.

Kakashi here was very nerfed and this is part 1, more important, the point I was making was that Kakashi is capable of making clones, here he is near death as you show in your own scans, covered in blood, very low on chakra.

he does make those clones though, and now those clones would be absolutely fodder due to how exhausted Kakashi is, but my point is he knows the jutsu, for reference with Naruto level reserves of chakra you can make thousands of clones, and perfect clones at that.

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and Kakashi has around 25% of a much stronger Teen Naruto's reserves.

so he should, at full output, quite easily hit the 50 limit BY THIS PANEL, but obviously six paths Kakashi has way more chakra, he manifested a fucking perfect susanoo after all, something this Kakashi can't even dream of.

and ofcourse he is also spamming kamui, something also first arc Shippuden Kakashi would die from trying or land in hospital,. Kakashi, scaling from the feat thst existed in the first chapter of the manga, would very easily scale to the 50 clone limit here.

You need to show Kakashi's combat application for mass shadow clones. However, we have, on page, seen that a single lightning shadow clone costs Kakashi HALF of his chakra reserve.

(Image keeps breaking, link here)

that's just a fallacy.

a lightning clone is a special technique only done by very strong characters, shadow clones is a low level technique spammed by Naruto, not considered impressive beyond part 1 and so forth, these are different techniques, no need to connect them.

But, speaking of clones, Loki himself can spam clones quite easily.

The Number never seems to get to 50 so I'm not really intimidated, while Kakashi would effortlessly hit 50 AND has a one shot technique.

Now, I KNOW that you are a Naruto expert and that anything I say here is already known to you. But that makes it so much worse. you are specifically using a temporarily amped Kakashi in this debate. Kakashi does not have two Sharingan eyes, he doesn't have the chakra reserves to Spam Kamui, he cannot use Susanoo, and he can't use mass shadow clones.

All of your feats come from a total of 1 issue when he was amped by Obito giving him 6-path chakra and his own chakra and sharing powers, temporarily.

This time limit that Kakashi has is literally your timer in this debate. Kakashi spends this energy and he's out.

Kakashi only received this influx of Obito's chakra and powers in Chapter 688, and he only used those powers in 689. He immediately spent this temporary amp. As for your "Kamui spam" approach.

He used a total of:

1. 4 Kamui Shuriken
2. ONE Kamui Raikiri.
3. He also used Kamui to remove one needle.

And the result of that exertion he was down and out.

The main flaw of this argument is obviously, the fact that you assume Kakashi is using his own chakra, he isn't, Kakashi is running due to the chakra that was given to him by Obito, the six paths chakra.

top right corner, It's Identified that Kakashi's chakra is six paths chakra, something that only Obito possesses in this equation, not Kakashi, so Kakashi is functioning entirely on Obito's chakra reserves.

now the timelimit is very likely the limit on Obito's reserves and not on Kakashi's reserves, as it was established earlier on in the arc that the worlds are connected by chakra and that's why Obito could go from that weird Limbo world to the land of the living, so if he runs out of chakra, logically the connection would break.

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Also, Obito didn't leave because they hit the hypothetical timelimit, he left because Kaguya was defeated and he was going back to the afterlife, there is a whole scene of goodbye.

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Really, it's just stamina, and Naruto has good stamina feats AND it's directly scaleable, so it's not really threatening to me, under normal circumstances Obito won't just leave mid fight obviously.

I get it. You purchased this specific version of Kakashi. I'm cool with that. But you can't just combine this version with whatever else you want. When using this highly specific version of Kakashi, you only get this one chapter's worth of feats.

In the words of Bret Hart, "THIS IS BULLSHIT!" Why should I be locked of abilities he showed in weaker versions when I'm representing a stronger version, in addition, why exactly should I be locked under a timer when I bought a SPECIFIC VERSION AKA DMS KAKASHI for three points? that doesn't make sense to me, I bought DMS Kakashi, who scales from earlier versions of Kakashi, but isn't quite DMS Kakashi anymore if he doesn't have....well....DMS, or double Mangekyou Sharingan.

He was completely gassed after a total of a few seconds of Susanoo and 4 Kamui attempts. That's all you have. And, with your strategy of spamming clones and Kamui, Kakashi would be out in a millisecond.

Nah, why? because he got gassed up because Obito left him and he didn't have access to that chakra anymore, there is no other reason here, and if you wanna argue he doesn't have the stamina, I would happily go over the verse's stamina feats.

All that being said, Kamui isn't a trivial ability, should Kakashi manage to fire it off before Loki turns him into a popsicle and kills him, one would imagine my team would be in trouble. Unfortunately for you, that couldn't be further from the truth.

Loki is adept at both traveling between dimensions much more easily than Kakashi can and at even straight up using his powers from a different dimension.

For example, he frequently travels from Asgard to Earth (and yes, Asgard is absolutely a separate dimension), and he has frequently used his powers across the universes, from Asgard to Midgard, this includes him giving powers to Sandu, attacking Dr Strange, sending his Astral form, and many other feats. If you wish to see them, just ask

Nobody said they intended to argue that but I've to say, even characters like Kaguya who can travel dimensions, can't travel to Kamui, even attacks that can interact with another dimension, cannot interact with Kamui, people who can teleport dimensions? Can't follow into or come out of Kamui, why? because it's a sealed time-space rather than one that can be reached.

however, my intent is not to send Loki to the dimension anyway, my main intent is to just rip your heads clean off with Kamui like Kakashi can rip off body parts, resulting in clean damage and eventually rip your head off spatially and transfer it to another dimension.

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so really, my usage of Kamui isn't to just send you to another realm, I intend to rip your body parts off and then finally your head off.

One of the main pointsnts that you raise against Kyouka Suigetsu is your personal belief that Kyouka Suigetsu became lesser during the Thousand Year Blood War aec than it was during the Arrancar arc, that is obviously logically fraudulent and doesn't make any sense given Aizen just evolved to transcendence and far greater power rather than ever "declining" and was in full control of his power in TYBW, but let's discuss this.

Not to mention that, since merging with KS, Aizen has lost quite a lot of his control. Where before he would choose every bit of what is seen and felt by his enemies, since the merger, it is a passive effect that he has no control over. As signified by your own scan showing that he had no idea what Yhwach was seeing.

And, most importantly, he only made Yhwach see him as Ichigo, didn't achieve anything. He didn't even use KS to dodge an attack. All he could do was make Yhwach think he was fighting one opponent when he was fighting another.

Alright, now this doesn't make sense Because

A) This is a huge assumption from your part without any solid evidence to back it up, Aizen's main power for some reason randomly became weaker upon him transcending beyond Shinigamis? when his other powers like Kurohitsugi and paasive aura became decently stronger.

B) Aizen's Kyouka Suigetsu always worked like that in the first place. You are already under his effect the moment you see his sword or in this case, his body. Its on him to make you feel or see whatever he want you to, it's far more probable that Aizen simply didn't intend to beat Yhwach by Kyouka Suigetsu alone?

C) Aizen also tricked Yhwach beforehand when, they both met at the start of the war arc where in the meantime Yamamoto was fighting Yhwach's clone/Royd. When Yhwach arrived back, he noticed that he was out of the time limit to operate outside of Scatten Bereich which then few moments later he realized that Aizen slightly altered his sense of time which shows that he had full control over his abilities in contrast to your theory.

Aizen doesn't need to use his Kyouka Suigetsu to dodge attacks first of all, why would he? when he can straight up no sell full power strikes from Yhwach?

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You use Aizen's usage as evidence of him not having full control over Kyouka Suigetsu but not only that the plan actually worked, and Ichigo landed the Getsuga Tensho on Yhwach clean.

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and Aizen explains in the next chapter that this was his plan all along, and if you noticed, they actually managed to kill Yhwach.

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The Only reason the arc didn't end then and there and so did the manga, is because Yhwach can rewrite futures that he dies in, and thus literally rewrote the future to come back.

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and FYI, Yhwach was resisting against Kyouka Suigetsu to a great degree, and in addition Aizen released Kyouka Suigetsu on Yhwach, letting him free the moment before the getsuga tensho landed.

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so how can you say Aizen lost control on the basis of his performance against Yhwach, when he achieved the perfectly desired results and actually killed the guy who sees infinite futures and writes futures as he wishes? Yeah, your whole argument here is bunk, shouldn't even have made it.

As you can see, when you apply the same standards that he used for his team on Loki alone, we get numbers that boggle the mind. Speeds that are millions or billions of times faster than anyone would have ever guessed. Power levels that go so far beyond limits of any reasonable or unreasonable tournament for comicvine that I should absolutely be banned if I actually argued those power levels and speeds for my team.

Obviously, well you're hitting the ceiling when it comes to everything you do at this point and that certainly takes us to a place where you should be disqualified, I can go out and do what you have done under the disguise of what I'm doing as well, there ain't nothing stopping me but there is a deep difference, I actually respect the rules and intend to stay within them, you've no problem going tiers and tiers above and pretend my in-limit representation of feats is disqualified because of you selling your representation of out-of-limits feats as you deploying my logic, well let me tell you something pal, what you've percieved as me hitting the ceiling, I've barely gotten off the floor and certainly, go ahead and actually follow on your plan to use my methods, see the result.

Here's a fact - Nobody in this debate is that powerful. Squad Zero people don't have the power to destroy the Sun 22 times over, no matter how many times TNO may try to sell that idea in this debate. Aizen, being tremendously more powerful than all of them combined, would, by his logic, be so far above the limits of the tournament, he should excuse himself instead of waiting for a ban.

See, this is where you're wrong, in my initial post I compared the power level I'm representing to around 22 times the size of sun, fair enough, but the limit of this tournament is vaguely star level. Guess what? Stephenson 2-B and UY Scuti are also stars, and they far dwarf that number.

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so really, being greater than combined Squad Zero doesn't make me go over the tournament limits, Thank You.

But, more than likely, that shouldn't happen for one very simple reason - We all know none of that stands under scrutiny.

Nah Nah Nah, no need to play that game, there is no need to talk for everyone, they can talk for themselves.

Narutoverse is not 250 times faster than light. Squad Zero captains aren't powerful enough to oneshot the Sun 22 times over individually. It's just not how those verses are written. And where does TNO get the scaling going for this feat? Based on an off-hand statement about how their powers would make "Heaven and Earth Tremble" followed by a link that doesn't show it quite like that.

How does the link now show what's implied anyway? now shaking the heaven and Earth might be a problem to you but I would happily go into the translation and wording and explain why it should be taken seriously, hm? and the panel shows us Soul Society shaking and it was Shunsui who noticed, and then in world of the living you had Ryuken and Isshin react to the shaking, and then in the space between the Soul Palace and Seireitei

Furthermore, scaled Aizen above them based on his own Masturbatory monologue.

see, Aizen was correct there and there is no chance to debate that, we've out of universe sources reaffirming his claims, for example, these scans state he transcended everything.

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Another couple of scans saying he transcended everything.

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another two scans saying that he surpassed even the state of God with his new form, God being something used to refer to the Soul King.

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and I know you might be scared of Guidebooks so I will go and present this, a recollection of the story done by Tite Kubo which DIRECTLY states that the soul society would be over if Aizen makes Oken which was only needed to enter the Soul Palace.

so are you going to acknowledge the common sense that is Aizen >> Squad Zero? or complain about their being too many scans again.

That monologue was made when he didn't know about the likes of Ichibei. He doesn't automatically scale above the likes of Squad Zero at all.

Give Aizen some credit, he knows more than you think he knows, he knew who Yhwach was for example, he knew Yhwach's name even when it was conceptually sealed away.

Aizen knew Hikifune who got to get into the damn squad but most importantly, Aizen knows the most well kept secret of soul society, which I doubt anyone beside Yhwach, Ichibei, Kisuke and so forth even know.

don't underestimate Aizen's knowing please, he is the smartest character in the whole franchise alongside Kisuke Urahara.

"Also think about the fact that just one member "flicking their wrist" caused the three worlds to tremble"

Did she flick her wrist, or use her Bankai and all of her powers for that?

Watch it for yourself.

she primarily used it to use whatever hax that is to absolutely destroy the Royal Guard rather than anything else, that was all, everything else was a side effect, she likens the power release to that of a flick of her wrist, when everything done was entirely an accident.

Aizen's feats cap at range-continental or slightly higher. Nobody in Bleach is truly going around one-shoting 22 stars at a time. I mean, everyone was shocked when Kenpachi had to use his Shikai to destroy a meteor. A meteor that was calculated to be roughly 1.5 kilometers in diameter by pixel measurements. That's not "Star level" or even near.

But, here's the thing, someone else calculated that meteor to be over 150km in diameter. And, a third person somehow got it to 5,000 kilometers. How is that possible? Simple really, feats weren't supposed to be pixel-measured or calculated to the nth degree.

now this is interesting, why? because for some reason you're talking about Kenpachi Zaraki when I'm discussing characters that would oneshot Kenpachi Zaraki, like I don't exactly get this line of thinking, because it thinks that there is some kind of relation between these two characters?

like why can't Kenpachi have feats in his tier and Senjumaru in her tier, especially unsealed Senjumaru who is amped by Soul King powers?

This is again, the equivalent of one talking about Thor's power level and then someone talks about fucking Captain America's power level, it doesn't make sense, it's just there to make something look good, but it doesn't have substance behind it.

Manga authors don't care about accurate sizes of things, distances, or even time measurements; especially not in these situations when something should be so large that it couldn't be possibly shown on screen along with human-sized protagonists.

this would matter...had I used Pixel scaling to get the distance between Soul Palace and Soul Society, I didn't so this doesn't really mean anything.

The same thing goes for you calculating 3 million kilometers of distance to the Soul King's palace. Fact is, we have no idea how it works or how far it is. Is Ichigo equally good at Marathon running as he is at blitzing back and forth?

he is flying up-down in this scenario, and I already displayed an example of Grimmjow moving at roughly lightning speed, like actually moving at those speeds, there is a reason why I used that for Ichigo rather than some higher speed scaling, because it's a direct statement for their travelling speed.

Does something change? Did Kubo Tite envision this feat to mean that the palace is 3 million kilometers away?

.... Probably? Tite Kubo was the one who wrote the Soul Palace to be so far a rocket like object needs to be used for travel, Tite Kubo shows them worlds apart and Tite Kubo wrote the lore in a way that implies it's ridiculously far away until they had Mimihagi.

If so, how did Yhwachs Auswahlen (which is literally light) work in seconds, and not take 9 hours?

Nah, You and I both know that Auswahlen ain't just light, Auswahlen is just Yhwach growing hungry and deciding to rebuild his power by eating folks alive, it even reached another dimension in form of World of the Living while Yhwach was in the shadow empire of Wandenreich.

It's literally Yhwach feasting on his kind, it would reach them always.

I also find it very funny that you are willing to cap Auswahlen at Lightspeed because you think it's just light but I wonder what you think about Caja Negacion and random Ceros being the speed of light as they're technically "light" and if you don't cap Auswahlen at lightspeed then I don't know the whole purpose of your statement at the first place.

(Please Understand The Point Of The Rant -- The point is that the measurements in detail, or calcs for distances simply don't work the way people imagine them to work, it's an arbitrary number the folks pull out of their asses).

Anyway, this rant is over. You can choose that we either go by feats shown on the page in a simple and straightforward manner, or to use your dribble to "calculate" the amount of joules for each feat based on vague author statements or offhand comments, or any number that would serve your argument. All I ask of you, and the voters is to use the same method for both of us, whichever method you choose.

Ignoring the obvious Biased marketting and leading people toward an answer, my discussion and argument did not even revolve around the calculation of Joules at the first place, I don't know why you feel the need to strawman when the argument was revolved around causing large ranged destruction with the Soul Palace as the epicentre of everything, like let's look at the post.

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as one can clearly see I did not go into "Joules" and that's just a deliberate misrepresentation, in addition to that I don't get the logic behind demonising me giving you the distance between Soul Palace and Seiretei when it cannot logically be presented as lower than that, and me using that as a radius, everything else is a narrative discussion on what the Squad Zero's sealed powers narrative implicates and why Aizen is beyond the Squad Zero.

At the speed of thought, loki deflects Mjolnir.

This is a reaction feat for Loki's magic, we can see he didn't move his body, but he casts spells by just thinking about them, and he can literally cast them instantly "At the speed of thought".

How fast is the speed of thought in the Marvel Universe?

The "speed of thought" sounds vague, but it actually isn't. Marvel has actually gone out of their way to tell us exactly how fast thoughts in Marvel are. For starters, and at the very least, we know it's significantly faster than light.

Confirmed in the Ultimates.

But, it doesn't actually end there. The Speed of Thought actually has a quantified speed feat in Marvel Fanfare 51.

(Marvel Fanfare Vol 1 #51)

Even at the speed of thought, a THOUSAND GALAXIES WOULD TAKE SEVERAL MOMENTS to Cross. A thousand galaxies. Let's just call it a massive overestimate and hyperbolic and instead let's just say the brain blast had to cross a SINGLE GALAXY instead. And, let's say it's our Galaxy. Our Galaxy alone is 105,000 lightyears across.

So, assuming just one galaxy instead of a thousand, the speed of thought would still cross 105,000 lightyears in "a few moments". Let's lowball that as much as humanly possible, and say that "A few moments" actually means "A full year".

well if you

If we did actual math, the number would have 17 zeroes btw

I don't know why you don't just argue Infinite speed or instantaneous speed considering you teleport from one point in the space time continuum to another at the speed of thought, might as well argue Loki's movements are instantenous, may as well not bother with speed at all.

and I guess reacting at the speed of thought means about nothing and just about everyone has feats with this term, Spidey included.

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and ofcourse, Wolverine.

Ofcourse Ofcourse, I'm very confident this is a super consistent super sensible concept with no contradictions and all the writers of marvel universe have the same view over it consistently accross every continuity and this is almost obviously never used hyperbolically at any point in any comic ever.

But....

let's do the maths here, the limit of tournament was set at around a picosecond.

The speed limit that was proposed was about something in picosecond, one picosecond is the minimum you can operate in, the 250 times FTL figure I got, I used T= Distance/Speed to slow that it came at 13 picoseconds which was within the limits.

now you are proposing 105,000 times the speed of light? that's nowhere near picoseconds mate, you'd be reaching picoseconds at thousands of times FTL, lower digit thousands, and now you're talking about 6 digits, you're operating in Femtoseconds with that 105,000c number.

heh, so you were trying to scare me with "look what I can do if I want to!"....by using feats that you cannot use?

So Please, Do it! go down the limits by hundreds of times, If breaking the rules and getting DQed very much IS your rebuttal.

(To be precise, it would be able to cross 549,500,000 light-years in 1 second!)

absolutely no Idea how you got this btw.

Which translates to 152,638 lightyears per hour.

sooooo 550 Million Lightyears are crossed in 1 second but 152,638 lightyears are crossed per hour?

This is billions of times faster than the speed of light. Your poultry math showcasing 250FTL doesn't even come close to this comparison.

Oooh, You wanna exceed the limits by millions of times? Oh certainly, go for it.

Already addressed the whole scan counting logic above, it's also about 10,000,000 times more illegal so it's not like you're working with restraints and with respect to a certain limit so ofcourse it's much easier.

If you still want to keep up with using this type of "scaling" at least use the same standards for my feats as well.

Nah Nah Nah Nah, we're not playing the same game here, If I wanted to play this same game with you We'd easily be at quadrillions of times FTL with the same type of case, but mine would be quite a bit more logical and believable, but regardless I'm working with respect to the limits, you're presenting things infinitely neyond, and obviously with other problems as well.

basically, you're trying to imitate your perception of me but instead of getting a good result you're getting an unallowed result, you're not actually imitating me because if our logics were the same my results would be much larger than what was presented as well.

now moving onto your Jane Thor thing.

Hell, nobody in my team is that powerful either. But, if we wanted to apply the same logic (TNO Calculated through Inverse Square Law the power for the distance of 3 million kilometers) we can apply it to Jane's feat of stopping a Supernova:

That's a trillion lightyears away - and planets "shook". If you applied the same "Inverse Square Law" logic that he used, you would get a feat that's trillions of times more powerful than his best claim.

No No, the feat itself is way beyond the tournament's restrictions anyway, I mean, you glossed over what seems to me to be the more impressive part of the equation, and that is this, lightning stretching to other galaxies.

I'm suuuuuuure this is within the star level limits.

but even if you calculate this as the universe being shaken, the result would be Iirc from calculations done by NWName and other debaters, above Solar System level or at the minimum there, and thus you'd be arguing the feat wayyyyy beyond the limit. though, this doesn't seem to be normal output at all.

She is summoning the Mother storm to achieve it for her, this isn't something she can output with normal blows from what you've presented, and if you wanna summon the mother storm here you've to take responsibility to go to a type of attack that greatly and thoroughly exceeds the limit of the tournament.

To be clear, Squad Zero's best quantifiable feat (anime-only Bankai release) wouldn't even register as a rounding error compared to this feat if we were considering "Distance to worlds shaking" as a proper way to measure feats. If you deduct 3 million from a trillion, you are still left with a trillion.

Not really, the whole point was that it's impressive because the implication is that the worlds would be greatly damaged if the powers are released and that's why they put immense ritualistic seals on them.

Now, tell me, does anyone here actually believe that Jane Thor is billions of times more powerful than Star level?

No, because I doubt she can construct galaxy spanning universe shaking lightning on a normal basis or with her average attacks, if she consistently outputted that level with her normal attacks, then yeah, people would've her at that level.

For this section, we will briefly touch upon the nature of Kyoka Suigetsu and how it works. We know it's not actual illusion casting, so it can only be one of two things:

1. Telepathic in nature

2. A magical mind effect

Probably the latter?

Bleach at the end is a series about spells and magic more than it's about comic like telepathic powers, the main source of power in the world is kido and that's literally called spells so spells make a lot more sense here.

so let's go with number 2.

And, unfortunately for you, both of those are covered by Loki's resistance. He has one of the most powerful minds in all of Marvel. Naturally, you will want to argue with a full no-limit fallacy and argue that there is no resisting KS. But, the issue we're running into is that nobody in Bleach really has ways of dealing with either TP or magical hallucinations. Something Loki doesn't have an issue with.

If KS mechanically works in a manner similar to telepathy, then someone's telepathic prowess should absolutely be applied as a defensive mechanism. And Loki has battled Odin in a telepathic mano-a-mano. He lost, granted. But he held him off for a few instants, and that's no small feat. Odin himself has been proven equal to Galactus (in TP as well as combat) and has, on occasion, used his powers to affect the entire universe. And, let's face it, in terms of Comic Book telepathy, KS is nothing special.

He has other, more reasonable feats as well, and against different types of control:

Controller's slave discs didn't work on controlling Loki's mind

Amora's (Enchantress) magical charms don't work on Loki, and Amora's powers work on the likes of Onslaught. and The Hulk. Many others as well, but these are famous for their telepathic resistance or powers.

well Loki seems to have lost that encounter with Odin so I don't really know why he gets scaling from there.

Now, I'm not going to attempt to match your mental Manipulation here because I really don't feel like I need to, HOWEVER my argument was more related to the fact that Kyouka Suigetsu manipulates soul. My point was mostly revolved around Soul and Mind having the same structure in Bleach, damaging the soul is what damages the mind and vice versa so while Bleach lacks strength in the mental department, it has lots of strength in the soul department

Aizen casually soul interacts with beings made of hundreds of millions of souls like someone like Grimmjow and Aizen's spiritual preassure is tied to his Kyouka Suigetsu as the latter is just an effect of prior, so really, you've to represent both soul and Mind feats, and I don't see many soul feats here.

I spend quite a bit of time in the first post establishing connections between soul and mind in Bleach and how they're one and the same, what's the point of counting the number of scans if you're not properly gonna refute them?

, we can assume KS works as a spell, in which case, Loki's talent at counterspelling his opponents will come in handy.

For example, even when in Seth's domain, he could dispel his binding spells with ease. The same Seth who could stand and bang with Odin affecting all planes of reality at once. Galaxies were destroyed and dead suns reignited. Loki openly admits that Seth is significantly more powerful, but Loki is more skilled, and more cunning.

Loki's skill in magic allowed him to defend himself and counter spells from a Skyfather who is thousands if not millions of times more powerful than him. As far as more reasonable dispels go, he casually dispelled Dr Strange's attempts to hold him. Dispelin Kyoka Suigetsu seems trivial in comparison.

all of this is fine, but it's mostly impossible to even realize you're in Kyouka Suigetsu, and it's not like you've presented a case to me for why exactly if Loki is exposed to a very strong soul attack or gets his head ripped off by kamui he would even survive or tank, which means that Aizen can just use Kyouka Suigetsu as a deceptive measure to expose Loki to an attack.

which is, you know, exactly how Aizen utilized Kyouka Suigetsu against almighty Yhwach, the character with the power to see infinite futures and rewrite future as he wishes, and it actually worked and killed Yhwach until Yhwach ressurected himself?

Regardless, if Kyouka Suigetsu is used in subtle ways, Loki would end up killing all his teammates and never even realise how it happened, as he would have his perception of reality completely controlled, or this can be used to pretty much make anyone from your team start infighting.

Outside of using your logic to scale Loki to insane speeds, I did plan on using regular and easily applicable speed feats for Loki. For example, once he noticed radio waves going to the Fantastic Four, thought about it, and redirected them.

This, BTW, in the very first Avenger comic ever. As we know, radio waves are literally just light, and thus they travel at lightspeed. He intercepted them and changed them.

The next few scans are also very telling:

In these three feats alone, we can see that Loki's reaction time can actually measure up to the likes of the Silver Surfer. A character known for his insane speed feats. If you are curious about this scaling, feel free to press it, and then try to argue how Kakashi is faster than Norin Radd. That would be a fun debate to have.

Eh, I don't really feel the need to argue that, because let's not pretend, you are never touching Kakashi; that's not an opinion but that's just a fact of life, I mean, he'd just pass through anything you launch, anything you launch at me? I'll just warp it all way and if it passes, it passes, that's no biggie.

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now, I don't think Kakashi is slower than Loki, I don't think he runs faster than the Surfer but that speed debate is not particularly interesting or impact, now Aizen, attacks won't get to him because things that get to him get destroyed.

so really, rushing at Aizen is equivalent to rushing at death, in addition he also has passive spiritual preassure to crush any attack fired at him, not that the attack would actually do something if it reaches him but just in case, more or less, Aizen's passives render any sort of speed advantage meaningless.

And, Loki also boasts any number of feats dodging Mjolnir. Such as this one.

He can also, quite casually let things pass through him (much like Kakashi can), quickly enough that a hammer throw can't tag him.

Aizen has just the answer for it, In Bleach characters can just straight up cut space so that's no problem, Kakashi also has spatial attacks to deal with any physical phasing.

And, he can fly quickly, dancing around Surtur's attacks.

You're missing things, Kakashi can teleport and Aizen can fly, Kakashi can also use kamui to control the spatial positioning of the battle like he showed against the Ten Tails, I've quite the substantial advantage in anything speed related.

He can let your attacks pass through him,

Nah, if that's the intent, it's time to rip apart the space time with Kurohitsugi's gravity to tear him apart.

and obvious soul attacks and space attacks to negate any physical phasing.

while at the same time casting spells instantaneously turning your team to snow, depowering them, creating weapons that can oneshot them, scrambling their brains, negating their own spells and attacks. And downright beating them.

I'm sure he can do all of them, and I'm confident I can present resistances and counters to all of them anyway.

Loki is an incredibly fast (already established) and incredibly skilled spellcaster. In this battle, all he needs to do is use one of his spells (either amped by the Norn Stones or not) and simply transmute your duo into something far less daunting. Like snow, for example.

And, for some context, the being being transmuted into harmless snow is none other than Bor, Odin's Father and a Skyfather in his own right.

Bor is insanely powerful. In his fight with Odinforce Thor, Thor outright admits that he would have gotten oneshot if he didn't have his father's power. In the same fight, Bor effortlessly caught Mjolnir and tossed it aside like a piece of trash.

Alright, so you choose to start with Transmutation, sadly, this won't work because Aizen possesses the Hogyoku which has fragments of the Soul King, and has attained an existence equal to or greater than the Soul King corpse. having a single piece of Reio allowed Ikomikidomoe to downright resist Ichibei's ichimonji.

Ichibei's ichimonji is conceptual rewriting of a being, if even a piece of Reio negates that, physical transmutation is....nothing? Aizen is downright unkillable to soul society and the best they can do is seal him away for 20,0000 years which would again, mean he is immune to things like Kyorsku Shunsui's law manipulation and Senjumaru Shutara's reality manipulation, but most importantly Ichibei hyobuse's conceptual rewriting which transmutation would fall under.

now regarding Kakashi, he withstood and used Six Paths Sage Chakra and if you cannot resist the effects of Sage Chakra in general, you get transmutated so Kakashi should be fine as well.

And, the funniest part of that entire fight? Bor was under Loki's mind control in that story. (Thor 600)

So, Loki has shown himself to be capable of both mind-controlling and transmuting a being on the level of a Skyfather. And, with his ability to cast spells at the "Speed of thought". Both Aizen and Kakashi are in grave danger.

now you move onto mind hax, My response to this is simple, for Aizen his Hogyoku evolution will take care of it, when under danger the Hogyoku already evolved Aizen to be immune to something and Kakashi's counter is simply that he has Obito with him who would break his up and Sharingan can nullify mind hax.

And, since I did notice you really did focus on Aizen's power level a lot, I assume you will want to argue that Aizen is too powerful for Loki to affect. However, as we have seen, Loki had no issues affecting Bor, but, if that is not enough for you, Loki has also fought Sise-Neg to a standstill in Loki Unleashed..

Not really gonna argue that, especially since I don't feel the need to since Aizen already showed immunity to literally everything that the soul society possessed, even conceptual manipulation

Do you wish to do a calculation of how many Joules Sise-Neg can create?

Humorous

Don't feel like quoting here as your full thing is just one point.

so I'm going to refute it in the conventional way, and say this, even if a way could be found around Hogyoku, Power nullifying weapons are certainly not the way to do it. for example, in Bleach, Yhwach's almighty gives him a power nullification over all of time that allows him to render even conceptual abilities to be worthless and effortlessly nullify them.

Yhwach can nullify conceptual hax but he cannot nullify Aizen's abilities, or his Hogyoku, as showed earlier he was forced to try to absorb Aizen and thus swallow Reio whole, beat him down with normal blasts or so forth, he had no way to nullify any of his abilities and was forced to try and brute force

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now even if a blade is constructed that can actually damage Aizen, I've explained in great detail.

1. Getting close to Aizen is impossibily difficult due to passive soul destruction, reiatsu crush and many other things.
2. Aizen can keep a distance if he wants to if a weapon is actually made that can threaten him, then he can wait for a new evolution that puts him past being affected by the weapon
3. or he can simply wish for the Hogyoku to grant him an ability he deems enough to handle whatever anti measures Loki has taken.

Now, that we're this far, I think even Aizen wishing that something doesn't happen would do the trick, why? because I believe Hogyoku is much deeper than meets the surface, let's go back to chapter 401.

As Aizen explained Hogyoku, Hogyoku isn't just an auto plus thing, it's much more than that, Hogyoku makes things happen as are desired by the people around it, Kisuke desired hollowfication and Hogyoku made that a thing, Rukia wanted to lose her powers because she thought she didn't deserve them for killing Kaien Shiba and Hogyoku made it happen, Orihime and Todo wanted powers and the Hogyoku made it all happen.

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so, what exactly am I getting at here? What I'm saying is, if Aizen doesn't want to fall to Loki, he won't fall to Loki because if he wants a way around whatever weapon Loki comes up with, the Hogyoku would bring that wish fourth because the Hogyoku seems to govern fate.

so even if Loki comes up with a weapon that can defeat Aizen with a blow...somehow he bypasses all passives, somehow Aizen has no way but if he wishes to not be harmed by that blade, he won't be harmed, why? because that's what Hogyoku does, change one's fate.

I believe you severely underestimated the trickiness a character like DMS Kakashi offers, the trickiness is that most attacks don't work because the body isn't in the universe and is in an uninteractive sealed off timespace, and the attacks that work aren't exactly that threatening because again, Kakashi's ability to resist and withstand was greatly underestimated here in my eyes. I feel like you misinterpreted his chakra reserves and again, underestimated on way too many instances and his offensive/utility capabilities are not that were addressed properly, the ability to spatiotemporally rip someone's body parts off while they're handling Kyouka Suigetsu is not something you can easily counter.

I disagree with Loki being better of the two, especially since Hogyoku can subconsciously almost manipulate fate and progression of life in Aizen's favour to make him come out on top.

I don't think Loki is faster than Aizen, but more importantly I think Aizen's passives, soul manipulation and ability to slice space gives him a large advantagement in any close ranged confrontation.

I believe the fact that Yhwach himself didn't have a way to actually nullify Hogyoku when he nullified things like Ichimonji which can seal away, transform, erase concepts, means that there is no real hope of negating something like the Hogyoku and even if a way is discovered, it's very likely that Aizen will simply find a way around by just wishing for a way around.

I don't think you addressed the whole soul manipulation component of Kyouka Suigetsu that results from Bleach's soul physiology argument I made earlier, and I think it's pretty clearly the second in nature, but the main point of Kyouka Suigetsu is your whole perception of reality is controlled, and thus you can be left open to ridiculous offense as well as attack your teammates, I think there are layers for you to work with that you haven't really done so far regarding Kyouka Suigetsu.

So Going through your post, I respect the passion you've shown and I respect the creativity and the fact that you were brave enough to properly challenge me on grounds of pretty much everything, but I think you make a lot of mistakes at many spots, now your post is good, better than 95% of things you'd see outside but there are flaws, and the flaws I've to point out.

you connect the number of scans to the content in a relevant manner, as I explained earlier, it's like judging something by the number of tools rather than the performance, you ignored the actual utilization of those scans and the method behind their utilization to assume all are going toward only one goal and that was wrong.

Your understanding of what Double Mangekyou Sharingan Kakashi was, is something that I cannot accept because even outside of the instory context of the events, you're trying to deliberately take a character away from me and then later on acting like you'd still beat me and debunk a bunch of my abilities without abusing the supposed timer, I've to ask, are you confident in your ability to disprove abilities for DMS Kakashi? are you confident in your ability to beat DMS Kakashi? and even if you are, trying to take away the version I bought comes off as very cheap and feels like a cop out mostly

Your argument regarding Aizen losing control over Kyouka Suigetsu, just doesn't make sense, not on a mechanical level and your critique of the plan Aizen made falls flat when you consider Aizen has an insane regeneration factor which would give him his hands back, and then you consider that the plan worked and Yhwach died for the timebeing.

I don't think Loki's counter spells would work when he is not even aware he is under the effects, which would leave him wide open for Kakashi to snipe his head or upper body off, ripping him in two.

Your attempt to imitate my logic just doesn't work because you simply end up imitating what is your perception of my argumentation and exceeding the limits of this tournament by a very large margin, not a good thing.

I've presented counters to transmutation, conceptual ones in the case of Aizen as even ichimonji can't effect those with Soul King fragments, reckon I'm fine for now.

Mind Hax, I don't think works, Naruto has lots of mind hax resistance feats as you'd know and Aizen has the Hogyoku to break him free.

currently, I just see the team winning with lots of abilities, space cutting swings, soul destruction, Kamui vortexing etc.